Greece debt audit committee deems debt "illegal, illegitimate and odious"

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: liteonit6969

All debt created by private fractional reserve banking should be considered illegal, illegitimate and odious.

We need to erase the world's debt to bankers and build a surplus, debt free, society.

We need to erase the current concepts of economy and society as a whole. This guy has some pretty good ideas:

The term and meaning of a Resource Based Economy was originated by Jacque Fresco. It is a holistic socio-economic system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter or any other system of debt or servitude.

The Venus Project

He's got a lot a great points, and not just about economy and society, check out his city and other structural engineering.

a reply to: ketsuko

Everyone will claim that they need a program to survive.

Are you clueless? People like the elderly and disabled do need some of these programs because without them they would be homeless and starve to death.

In the end, either we all make do with less, or the system comes down and we all suddenly have nothing.

Many people cannot make do with less because they already have nothing.
I will admit the people who call you a heartless conservative are wrong because even conservatives admit there are social programs that are needed. You are just plain heartless.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

Ah yes! The "Wish Based" economy!

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Germany should pay off Greeks debt. They are rich and built on the destruction of other people. It's cash back time, how much to pay.

Germany doesn't owe Greece a dime. In fact they had been loaning Greece money to pay it's debt but cut them off.

Did Germany ever compensate for murdering Greeks Jewish population (destruction of much of its business set up) and if not it's time to cough up?

Greece should hit Israel up for the money because that is who Germany has been paying reparations to.

Yep................ You are right. Germany does indeed owe Greece nothing. Best bet is give up on trying to integrate the Mediterannean world within what was originally a northern European club. Greece never had the industrial base of the north just like Portugal and the like. Let the Greeks go for a swim in their pool and let the north get on with waht they do. Indeed the Greeks may attract back all those pool side people who stopped visiting there, goig to Turkey or Bulgaria instead when the Euro pushed prices up and Greece went from a cheap and good value holiday to something more expensive than home!

I don't think they'll get any money out of Israel btw unless it's via the oil oligarchs of Russia and their man Vlad

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Russia is wooing Greece. Look for Putin to help bail out Greece in exchange for a military alliance.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Russia is wooing Greece. Look for Putin to help bail out Greece in exchange for a military alliance.

Yeah that looks the way it's going. Russia and Greece were always best budies, there was something on the gas pipeline the other day in the Sunday Times saying that getting Greece on board along with Turkey was essential to the Russians.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: liteonit6969

The problem is very simple: Greek people seem to think that taxes are illegal, illegitimate and odious.

So did the forefathers of the United States. In actuality, according to both the Federalist Papers and Constitution, the treasury is to print money. The Federalist papers specifically state many times to STAY AWAY FROM CENTRAL BANKS (Federal Reserve), and the constitution states that a federal income tax is only legal during times of war.

a reply to: Flesh699

Where does it say that?

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Isurrender73
All debt created by private fractional reserve banking should be considered illegal, illegitimate and odious.

Yet Greek debt was created by the country living beyond its means for quite a few years. Blame the bankers if you like, but the problem is too few Greeks paying tax, generous public jobs, massively expensive public sector (yes, I would love to retire at 55) and (er) a blinkers-and-fairy-land-mentality.

It's easy to blame an entire nation, instead for a few mafia governments, bank and organizations and their sheep that profit and live parasitic to the society,
But guess what, this happens in every country of the world,
Your country's government is not less corrupt thanthe Greeks
By the way the economy goes there might be a day when you would have to live in poverty too,
having to pay back money others enjoyed on your behalf!

Yes some people in the public sector that were put there just for the ''connections'' they had to various politicians.
were paid 3000 euros a month, retiring early etc, Although this picture is promoted by the media, reality is/was very different.
At the same time the majority of the hard working people in private sectors were paid only 600 euros a month and had to retire at 65, in a very expensive society (rent, bills and food would cost at least 1500 a month for a 4 member family).

Anyway the point is that today the same people are paid even less, life has been more expensive than ever everytime the government can't pay back the banks, there are extra seasoned taxes beside the already harsh ones that have already been paid. that usually come as one with the electric bill.( ex.electric company n taxes + extra taxes)

There are people living in the dark without electricity because their income is too low to pay the bills
Add to this tragic situation having the worst healthcare system in the world,
and a really bad quality of life in major cities, (worst roads, traffic, pollution, noisy stressful environment etc)
almost 50% unemployment among youngsters up to 35, and
older people with an income of 350 euros a month that can't afford to cool themselves in the summer or be warm at winder, thay gather outside supermarkets to find left over vegetables from the garbage bins...

These people worked hard during their lives, paid regular their taxes, never took advantage of the public sector and now the have to pay back money they never saw!
Their children and their grand children are doomed too... since people die but the debt lives on...
Every new greek child born, owes money, that he will pay back during their lifetime,
money he has to work for... and live a life in poverty in order to pay back and to survive.

In the recent past, many of their previous politicians, along with the rich elite, send their millions to Switzerland banks, to be safe in worst case scenario. That resulted in banks to be in danger without actual cash, So the next step is to borrow from Goldman sacks, IMF, Germany to save the banks, and the debt will be carried to the people!

In the end, my argument to your comment is that, in most cases those responsible get away, and leave the ordinary sheep/slaves to pay for the damage!

originally posted by: Flesh699

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: liteonit6969

The problem is very simple: Greek people seem to think that taxes are illegal, illegitimate and odious.

So did the forefathers of the United States. In actuality, according to both the Federalist Papers and Constitution, the treasury is to print money. The Federalist papers specifically state many times to STAY AWAY FROM CENTRAL BANKS (Federal Reserve), and the constitution states that a federal income tax is only legal during times of war.

Oh.......You are a smart one......You actually understand how this country should work......Bravo. You are 100% correct and truth be told we are so far off the liberty path people can not even fathom it anymore. This is not a democracy it is a republic. The founding fathers hated democracies because they turn into Oligarchies over time.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: paraphi

Eliminating the debt and private fractional reserve banking is not "Fairy Land", it was what the founding fathers envisioned.

This is not a utopian ideology, it is common sense math.

I think you have a gross misguided impression of what the fore fathers envisioned. The fore fathers were more than willing to pay their fair share towards debt accrued by the expansion of the colonies, as long as they were represented in the decision making of any said taxes and had a voice to their merit. It was when the king implemented the Stamp act to increases taxes (to fight the colonist mind you) on the colonist that the colonist rebelled against the crown. And even after the Parliament enacted the Coercive Acts (was intended to punish the colonist for the Boston Tea Party through taxes), the colonist even petitioned the crown that such taxation without representation was illegal. There were still taxes and they government still had to pay their bills.

Maybe missed it.....

But, is there a link?

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: ketsuko

Everyone will claim that they need a program to survive.

Are you clueless? People like the elderly and disabled do need some of these programs because without them they would be homeless and starve to death.

In the end, either we all make do with less, or the system comes down and we all suddenly have nothing.

Many people cannot make do with less because they already have nothing.
I will admit the people who call you a heartless conservative are wrong because even conservatives admit there are social programs that are needed. You are just plain heartless.

No, I'm not clueless. I am telling you the truth as dictated by math. Everyone will have to make due with less or the whole thing will come down and we will all have nothing.

Make your choice - full ride until the end which comes sooner rather than later or everyone suffers across the board.

I did not make the bad choices our collective government of BOTH PARTIES has been making for over 100 years to put us here and neither did you, but we are here now and the longer we put off reality the worse it will be for all of us.

Six in ten Greeks do not pay taxes...They ruthlessly resist and cheat on their taxes.

www.cnn.com...

Your comment is uniformed and ridiculous...

Jeremy Vine was talking about how Greeks dodge their taxes. If they have a swimming pool under construction they avoid paying tax. Most houses in the suburbs have half built swimming pools No wonder Merkel is getting peeved with the Greeks

originally posted by: liteonit6969
a reply to: ketsuko

Define living beyond their means. The system seemed to think they were well within their rights to spend this "money". Can you not see the problem here? Money isn't real. Nothing has changed. Yet those in power have decided to create this.
Most likely the government is looking after no 1. But it is clear the Greek people are being properly represented.

I'll define it for you: Pay taxes like on the Cyamans, enjoy socialist benefits like in Scandinavia - work like a Spaniard on siesta.

Seriously, female public servants can (albeit not in all cases) demand life long pension after having worked for only 15 years! I kid you not! Of course, if the country can afford it, that is awesome, but obviously the country cannot.


And to be clear, the Greek are not taking issue with the repayment program - the want to dictate the terms for borrowing even more.

When fools combine the suicidal insanity of socialist policies with high taxes and usury, you end up with a self entitled collapsed society.

The great socialist experiment is a complete 100% failure, you imbeciles lose. ~$heopleNation

a reply to: liteonit6969
I was in Greece some 10 or so years ago, before this whole fiasco. Mainly visiting cousins, and let just say the people there did not look like they needed any bailing out or any loans. Most of that is just land grab scams anyways, zeros and ones on a computer screen greasing pockets of politicians, and when when the people cant pay back all those zeros and ones which really are created out of thin air, well then you know, dept, and land grab time. Its called loansharking, only on a global scale.

It would not surprise me that now a lot of the landmarks and even the whole beach tourist industry there which is huge and likely a good money maker, is now owned by foreigners all with ties into this whole lending scam. But for the most part when I was there my cousins did not seem to be hurting, and all said they had it easier and more better there then anywhere, but after this whole "lend" thing, well it seems the place has slumped some what. One I know moved to another country, the others left, and only a female cousin who is married to a Greek stayed.

So ya! You would think that since they have been doing pretty alright for themselves for what? Hundreads of years. For the most part the reason why there was so little jobs which was totted up some years ago in the news was simply because the average Greek did not need to bust his ass working 2 jobs just to sustain himself or family, they may not have been rich, but in that lifestyle and place they were living better off then pretty much anybody I know, lets just say they did not have it all that bad at all from what I seen when I was there.

Even my cousin who had an apartment not far from the whole beach scene did not know how good he had it, I told him for the same place in the same sort of area in America in a place like LA they would have been paying hundreds of thousands if not millions for that place just on the area alone. He was thinking of coming up here, but I know here in the north west if you try to get an apartment like that by the beach area, you need some serious bucks, that and the place does not even compare, not only is the water full of seaweed all year round, you would freeze your ballz off in about minute in that beach area even in the hottest summer.

The dude saw the map and thought the whole west coast of America was like the coast of Greece blue waters and everything. Your really cant even compare the two if you look at it for what it is, instead of what people or the media wants you to see it as.

Funny now how for some hundreds of years now, they were doing alright for themselfs, but all it took was a few years of propaganda and mind#ery with the populous, it must be nice to own all major news networks and other and now they are in the #z and owing dept for what is essentially imaginary monopoly money. They are worse off now with the whole EU and lending scam then they were before, they just did not know how good they had it before...Poor fools.

Was the country living beyond its means back then? Hell the funk no, they had it better then I when I visited and now, or most people living here, or elsewhere around the globe, and they had to work a whole lot less for it. Now you could say that is good as that is like most peoples dream, or you can say its bad and that there is mass unemployment and that they need to be bailed out, and then $$$. Funny how that works no? But mass media is a powerful tool, and people in groups are stupid, you can convince them of anything, that has been known for centuries.

"Romans regarded Greeks as essentially frivolous, people who talked too much and were too clever by half. They were duplicitous, and quite unreliable with money, especially their own public funds"

Hmmmmm.......

originally posted by: Flesh699

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: liteonit6969

The problem is very simple: Greek people seem to think that taxes are illegal, illegitimate and odious.

So did the forefathers of the United States. In actuality, according to both the Federalist Papers and Constitution, the treasury is to print money. The Federalist papers specifically state many times to STAY AWAY FROM CENTRAL BANKS (Federal Reserve), and the constitution states that a federal income tax is only legal during times of war.

Sorry to nitpick but we've been in nearly perpetual war since the federal income tax came into being. And that doesn't include all of our covert wars & proxy wars. So we're not actually violating the part I put in bold.