The Specter of False Forgiveness

The bloody history of the oppression of black people in the south is littered with this abuse being perpetrated by a strange doctrine in some Christian circles of forgiveness.


Sure one should always be ready to forgive. But NOT those who haven’t repented or at least asked sincerely for forgiveness and apologized to the victims sincerely

The scene of grieving victims of the racist murderer, Dylann Roof, in a court room swooning over themselves in tears to forgive this mass murderer to me is a perverted and discussing scene.


It is to me as if a Jew would swoon over a NAZI who had just slaughtered their people and say they have forgiven the unrepentant murderer.

To many times the white racism has hid behind the distorted idea of “love your enemy” that the black slaves were indoctrinated in to forgive their slave masters.


Would the slaves ask forgiveness for whatever reason they were enslaved for!

Of course not


But until the murderer gets down on his knees and repents and sincerely feels sorry for his crime should any degree of forgiveness be handed out.

Indeed, forgiveness IS NOT for the unrepentant who still feel they have done good with their evil deeds.

It is only for those who over time see the error of their ways and sincerely feel inside their hearts the enormity of their offense and sincere empathy to the offended...

These people I know are in the throes of grief but they still have no right, imo, to forgive this mass murderer and allow him to feel any degree of relief.

Somehow I do not think that you or I have any philosophical ground to stand on to suggest how these folk should or should not respond.

a reply to: Willtell

I forgive people when they have become very sorry.
I'll do it at the drop of a hat (haha that's a funny expression)..

Before that anger, sadness, grief... That's all you can feel. You have to get through what happened first..
you kill my kid and you will get my wrath before my forgiveness. You better hope my wrath involves coppers. Maybe my wrath is even just internal anger.. I generally take that out with intense workouts.

I don't have forgiveness in my heart for KKK members and anything like it. I really really dislike you if you are racist.. I almost lack the ability to hate.. But I can turn that on if I need to. Then it's Scorpio hate.

Part of racism is not forgiving members of another race, because not all members of the other race deserve it.. But that's just more racism again.. It feeds itself..

Meanwhile I love you guys, (you guys is everyone)

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
Somehow I do not think that you or I have any philosophical ground to stand on to suggest how these folk should or should not respond.

hmm.. Good point.. I can submit to that idea.

Forgiveness is sometimes the best thing you can give under such horrible circumstances. That does not mean that these families don't want this murderer to go free. It is more of the fact that they are trying to honor the memories and values of those who were lost. If they hold on to the pain of that moment with anger and revenge it will distort their connection to a deeply loved individual. Forgiveness is one of the highest and most profound spiritual acts a human being can initiate. The victims' loved ones are forgiving him on a spiritual level, but they are going to hold him responsible on a legal level. The law will give this twisted person a chance to atone and understand what he has done. He must pay the earthly price. If he does maybe he may become aware of just what towering beings these were who tried to cleanse the hate he injected into this world. Those beings that he could not comprehend, so he hated. He destroyed them because he was afraid that "they" were taking over. He should only be so lucky to live in a world that was led by people of this fine caliber.
I hope that I might someday be made of such fine character as these loved ones left behind. I fear I would struggle under their burden. For now I will do my best to empathize and forge new relationships with all others inspired by what I have seen.

Because they can't have any forgiveness going on while they're trying to instigate a race war via manufactured hostility, now can they?

I suppose Christ was in error when He said "Father forgive them."
a reply to: Willtell

So you're upset that instead of rioting and looting and setting fires...

They forgave their assailant?

Careful, your agenda is showing.

Maybe the concept behind true forgiveness is that it doesn't require reciprocity.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
Somehow I do not think that you or I have any philosophical ground to stand on to suggest how these folk should or should not respond.

That's your opinion




On several levels you’re “philosophically wrong”

Though on the point that this is their personal issue— since it is their relative—you have some leverage

As a citizen, person of conscience, I have a “philosophical” right to an opinion of any body’s action.
Also, If your premise were true then this forum would be empty

Also…were their forgiveness literal such as in some ME countries THIS GUY COULD GET OUT OF JAIL!

So we come to the figurative sense of forgiveness, based on the religion of “love thy enemy” Indeed a philosophical debate of common occurrence in which I as a person of conscience has every right to comment on


Here is what I wrote:

“These people I know are in the throes of grief but they still have no right, imo, to forgive this mass murderer and allow him to feel any degree of relief.”


Such rights belong to God, imo

originally posted by: GUITARPLAYER
I suppose Christ was in error when He said "Father forgive them."
a reply to: Willtell

I think he may have been asking for their forgiveness but that doesn’t mean it was granted by God (reality)


Just because one asks god to do something like forgive somebody doesn’t mean it’s granted

Most of the time it isn’t


For such a granting presumes one knows better than God.

Sure religion espouses that forgiveness is generally a good thing, but mainly, I think, only in the context of it not spreading further violence


Certainly the Romans didn’t stop crucifying people

a reply to: Shamrock6

The only agenda that’s showing is yours


your an open book

I don't think how people grieve can be dictated or judged.

a reply to: Kali74

Then people can’t comment on the people who forgive our oppressors ?


You leave the context out of the equation you leave the heart out of it


So the next murderer of black people can feel forgiven

A truly evolved person can and will, equivocally, forgive another's transgressions.

originally posted by: MagesticEsoteric
A truly evolved person can and will, unequivocally, forgive another's transgressions.

Maybe?

Then God isn’t evolved

I think that the point was that He forgave in His heart and asked God to forgive them. You know the old 70x7 ratio.
a reply to: Willtell

I think the only thing we can feel, being as removed as we are from the circumstances, is pain.
Once we are inside that hell well, we have no idea what we would be capable of feeling, do we?
I would find it very hard to forgive, maybe impossible, and I think that makes me a lesser person than those who have tried.
My heart goes out to those who find themselves there right now.

What people don’t understand in this thread is that this is NOT a knock on the people involved, but a commentary on the religion in questions hypocritical and imo, distorted idea of forgiveness...


There are certain things people can forgive sincerely in their hearts but often with religion its, again, only dogma, because they are expected to forgive according to the dogma of their religion.


So woe to them if they are going against their heart for the sake of the dogma in their religion and they don’t really feel it

That would be, imo, counterproductive

originally posted by: Willtell

What people don’t understand in this thread is that this is NOT a knock on the people involved, but a commentary on the religion in questions hypocritical and imo, distorted idea of forgiveness...


There are certain things people can forgive sincerely in their hearts but often with religion its, again, only dogma, because they are expected to forgive according to the dogma of their religion.


So woe to them if they are going against their heart for the sake of the dogma in their religion and they don’t really feel it

That would be, imo, counterproductive

Unforgivness can and does fester into a wound that can be greater than the act perpetrated against that person. And I am by no means trying to minimize what took place.

a reply to: Willtell

This revenge-and-punishment mentality was probably shared, in greater or lesser measure, by the shooter himself.