The Specter of False Forgiveness

a reply to: Willtell

I admit, I was amazed... taken aback really, at the words I heard from the loved ones of the slain, at that hearing.

But I think of their belief system, for one thing. Their faith teaches them:


"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."
-Matthew 6:14

And from a psychological perspective, to be able to forgive this man actually frees these people from a life of bitterness that would eat them alive. The above verse ties into this if you consider another statement attributed to Jesus: 'The Kingdom of God is within you.' So resentment would poison the God-ness within them, and they would suffer internally for holding that grudge.

Well, that's my take on it anyway. I'm glad for THEIR sake, not his, that they found this incredible capacity to forgive, and to pray for mercy on his soul. Say what you will, but these people truly practiced what they preach. I am in awe of them. This type of person, in my opinion, gives Christians a good name (where so many clearly do not!)

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Willtell

I admit, I was amazed... taken aback really, at the words I heard from the loved ones of the slain, at that hearing.

But I think of their belief system, for one thing. Their faith teaches them:


"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."
-Matthew 6:14

And from a psychological perspective, to be able to forgive this man actually frees these people from a life of bitterness that would eat them alive. The above verse ties into this if you consider another statement attributed to Jesus: 'The Kingdom of God is within you.' So resentment would poison the God-ness within them, and they would suffer internally for holding that grudge.

Well, that's my take on it anyway. I'm glad for THEIR sake, not his, that they found this incredible capacity to forgive, and to pray for mercy on his soul. Say what you will, but these people truly practiced what they preach. I am in awe of them. This type of person, in my opinion, gives Christians a good name (where so many clearly do not!)

Very well written - We MUST forgive others so our own sins will be forgiven by God plus if we truly forgive then God will heal you of the unfair day/night torment you relive. No more dreams or reliving the experience. Healing your emotions so you can go on about your daily life without living in fear, guilt, hate, anxiety and depression etc...

Let judgment come from God - do not take revenge.

"Revenge is mine said the LORD."

The punishment that God gives out in more severe than any man could ever do.

Matthew 10:27-28 - "What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops. "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:4-5 - "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!…

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Willtell

I admit, I was amazed... taken aback really, at the words I heard from the loved ones of the slain, at that hearing.

It was the same thing with the Sandy Hook parents. They were all so tearfully happy to forgive the shooter. That is one of the things that makes incidents like these scream "agenda" to me. Like they want to tell us how to behave when the s finally hits the fan and the people who have done much wrong to others are suddenly feeling vulnerable for the first time in their lives.

Sal

a reply to: Willtell

It's a cliche but forgiveness is for you not for the other person. It is their right to forgive and it's in no way, shape or form meant to give the other person relief because in the end i doubt they really care about whether or not you forgive them. It is a means to allow the forgiver to move on without any hatred or resentment towards the person who commited the act.

a reply to: Willtell

Please come up with something better than a school yard response.

So what is it when white people do the same thing? About a month ago a truck driver smashed in to an SUV here and killed a kid and the pregnant mother. The hospital tried to deliver the baby, and managed to do so. The baby died about two days later if I recall correctly.

The husband/father's church issued a statement on his behalf saying that he forgave the driver and did not want him prosecuted (he was anyway). So...why did he forgive the truck driver? What was he "conditioned" by?

a reply to: Willtell
Maybe if you weren't so bound up in the God aspect of your perspective, you would be able to see that forgiving someone who is "unrepentant" isn't just about them. It also frees the person doing the forgiving. Think outside of religious indoctrination.

I once heard a wise person say that to harbor unforgiveness is like taking poison in hopes of killing your enemy.

Duplicate post...

a reply to: Willtell

Forcing forgiveness upon oneself because of political/religious/social correctness is mighty dangerous and detrimental to one's mental health. Yeah, right, Jesus says this and that about forgiving 70 X 7 to Pete' the fisherman, but it is just not that easy. Doing that tends to make you a door mat for all and sundry to just walk over digging their heels in and laughing demonically as they continue their selfish harm and abuse. Yeah, right, let's do that! We don't need judges and law, let's just turn a blind eye to murder, rape, child abuse, homicide and all, polish it off with a smile and say gently, "I forgive you". As if that is going to maintain a secure society that deals with the horrors humans do to each other.

In the immediate aftermath of a violent homicide the loved ones of the victim are going to be in deep abject shock. How can any human make a rational decision in such a short time? I said dangerous because supressing feelings and rage in such a way while in shock can send those feelings rocketing into the unconscious and be sure they will haunt you and some time in the future come out inappropriately and even violently. The rage that the perpetrator felt that inspired him to do this insane deed could be a result of repressed feelings that build up over a life time.

I used to do stuff like forgive people all the time, quickly and with all my heart. However, the unconscious is not so quick to Mother Theresa acts of selflessness and I ended up cracking up completely. Now I shout and scream. I cuss and yes sometimes I hate. It is far healthier to admit my feelings to myself and not have some policeman priest saying I'm out of order and wrong for having such feelings.

It really does my brain in when Christianity is all to ready to point fingers at ourselves all the time, saying it is our fault. FFS sometimes it ain't our fault. Christianity says we're wrong to be gay, to sometimes feel like hating, to fight the slave master because he enslaves us and makes our life a living hell (a life so precious that it is a one time short event in eternity). Yet nature carries on forcing ourselves upon us. No wonder we're all raving nutcases with head games like this going on in existence.

Lock the little bastard up so he can't hurt anyone else. Don't ever let him out. Personally it seems hypocritical to kill the little #wit as it is just demeaning us as a society to stoop to the same depths as the stupid little # who has ruined so many lives psychologically as well as physically.

originally posted by: incoserv
I once heard a wise person say that to harbor unforgiveness is like taking poison in hopes of killing your enemy.

More like swallowing the poison given to you instead of forcing it down the throat of the one who hurts you! There is only so much hurt a human being can take without cracking. Once they crack it will be violent against others or self. Where does Jesus say how to mend all the broken pieces again. hmmm?

a reply to: EternalSolaceWell said kind Sir.

a reply to: Revolution9


Great post. Your one of the few who understand me.

The religious folks understand little as usual...they always default to dogma.

To them I say

What of Jesus in the synagogue when he went a little crazy over the moneychangers.


There is a time for( righteous) anger, a time for forgiveness and a time for introspective rumination.


Just following automatic dogma often leads to ignorance

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Willtell

Please come up with something better than a school yard response.

So what is it when white people do the same thing? About a month ago a truck driver smashed in to an SUV here and killed a kid and the pregnant mother. The hospital tried to deliver the baby, and managed to do so. The baby died about two days later if I recall correctly.

The husband/father's church issued a statement on his behalf saying that he forgave the driver and did not want him prosecuted (he was anyway). So...why did he forgive the truck driver? What was he "conditioned" by?

Maybe he intellectually understood IT WAS AN ACCIDENT.

This incident in SC transcends these individuals because of the history of slavery in America, and the tradition of lynching black people…outright massive murders of black people over the centuries by white people


If you can't understand that


Then you need forgiving

To the religious inclined:


There is no injunction in Christianity or any religion to forgive automatically.


These religions rightfully recommend forgiveness IF IT IS SINCERE!

Not just to show off to your fellow religionist that you are like Christ

That’s called in religion: praying to be seen of men…nothing but religious vanity, insincere egotism…



Religion says IT WOULD BE BETTER TO FORGIVE


That’s very true IF IT IS REALLY IN YOUR HEART
Not just the dogma of the faith

If you outwardly say you forgive someone AND IN YOUR HEART YOU DON’T

YOU ARE A LIAR

a reply to: Willtell

It was an example. Of white people doing the same thing you're so upset about black people doing.

I'm sorry the act of forgiveness is so offensive to you.

Oh well.

a reply to: Klassified

If it is sincere and doesn't have deep historic and political implications like this.



During NAZI Germany would you recommend a Jew to forgive the Nazis while they were murdering them?



I say if it is sincerely in ones heart then it is a good thing for that person.


But some ME societies allows victims to free their abusers if they want to forgive them. What happens when they go free and they keep committing crimes?

a reply to: Shamrock6

I didn't say forgiveness was offensive to me, only in the case of this incident at this time and place.


Everything has its own perspective you can't generalize things and apply then universally

a reply to: Willtell

The scene of grieving victims of the racist murderer, Dylann Roof, in a court room swooning over themselves in tears to forgive this mass murderer to me is a perverted and discussing scene.

Do you think these people were swooning?

Forgiveness is a complicated thing. Choosing to forgive frees a person from the possibility of an all consuming hate and anger which might last for the rest of their lives

Some people have the ability to look at things exactly as they are. They recognize that nothing will change or fix what happened (not even judgement or punishment)

It's not something everyone can do, and I can't say it's something we should expect anyone to do. It is an ability that I understand, respect and admire

a reply to: Willtell


And you can't pretend to know the inner workings of anybody's mind but your own.

Especially people you've likely never even met.

I am not a man of great faith, but the families of the victims of the Charleston massacre, and their wider community are definitely "walking the talk" in the wake of this tragedy, and they have both my respect and admiration.