Quantum mechanics needs no consciousness (and the other way around)

originally posted by: HotMale
a reply to: korg trinity

Trajectory is one property one might want to measure... but it is by no means the only one. The moment you make a measurement on one aspect of the quantum system you affect all of it instantaneously.

Omg, still not touching the actual experiment.

This is bs, because when the info gained by this interaction is erased, there is an interference pattern, as if no interaction took place.

Again a poster is arguing something that doesn't apply, and is clearly ignorant of the experiment I am talking about.

How can I fully respect you people as peers if none of you is on the topic of the post they are replying to, none of the time?

What I tell you will not be wrong... you just need to apply the information.....

In the case of the Quantum eraser, it is clear that there is an interaction but that interaction is in itself no longer part of the system... because it has been erased... therefore the original photon is once more Quantum in nature.

originally posted by: Elysiumfire
korg trinity:

...a quantum object can be perceived as a waveform...

Hold your bloody horses there! Quantum objects are not 'perceived' as waveforms there are 'abstracted' as waveforms. You are applying consciousness at a level it does not exist.

No I'm not... and you are right... it was my poor choice of words in this case.

a reply to: Elysiumfire

Oh dear. What the hell do you think you are reading as info? Detection only occurs out of interaction, we are pertaining to the same bloody thing!

I think not. You are talking a bout the actual interaction of a device with a particle, i am talking about the info gleaned from that and its availability. It's not the same thing at all.

...what does it matter if concrete info is there or not?

You took this the wrong way too.....

Let me rephrase and say the same thing again, why and to what does it matter if path info is AVAILABLE? If it is erased there is an interference pattern as if no detection and interaction took place.

korg trinity:

...a quanta can indeed be absorbed into a greater system and have no net effect on that system.

Thanks for the reply.

I agree. There are equivalents to the set up you state at macro level. Sight, for instance, operates on the same mechanistic procedure, but no single photon carries enough energy to stimulate the rods or cones on its own, it takes approximately 5 to 10 photons to cause a firing along the optic nerve.

a reply to: korg trinity

In the case of the Quantum eraser, it is clear that there is an interaction but that interaction is in itself no longer part of the system... because it has been erased... therefore the original photon is once more Quantum in nature.

Ah, the meaningless cop out.

Noted.

Is this your day job?

HotMale:

If it is erased there is an interference pattern as if no detection and interaction took place.

Both the inclusion or the lack of an interference pattern is info. Point being, there is always info, and there never can be a case where there isn't any info.

originally posted by: HotMale
a reply to: korg trinity

In the case of the Quantum eraser, it is clear that there is an interaction but that interaction is in itself no longer part of the system... because it has been erased... therefore the original photon is once more Quantum in nature.

Ah, the meaningless cop out.

Noted.

Is this your day job?

It is clear to me that you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about, this explains your defensive and abusive nature.

If the information I give you, you do not want to listen to that is entirely up to you... it is however, I assure you, the current understanding of the results from the quantum eraser experiment.

The fact that you have had difficulty understanding this far means I am unfortunately unable to enlighten you with the stark implications of those results.... which is a shame really as they are quite interesting to say the least....

originally posted by: Elysiumfire
HotMale:

If it is erased there is an interference pattern as if no detection and interaction took place.

Both the inclusion or the lack of an interference pattern is info. Point being, there is always info, and there never can be a case where there isn't any info.

Ironically it is this very point that makes it possible for the entire universe to exist in the first place!

korg trinity:

Ironically it is this very point that makes it possible for the entire universe to exist in the first place!

You deserve a coffee, don't spill it!

originally posted by: HotMale


This is the moronic "it is the setup of the apparatus" again. If this ridiculous notion is true there would be no Quantum dillemma and all scientists would agree on this and there would be no need for superposition and manyworlds interpretation and particle/ wave duality.

There is no reason for manyworlds. Superposition is not real (besides the fact that waves can pass over one another). The setup of apparatus is agreed to be important by everyone.

Why would you ignore aspects of the setup of the apparatus? That seems like it would be what the word ignorance means.

a reply to: Elysiumfire

Both the inclusion or the lack of an interference pattern is info. Point being, there is always info, and there never can be a case where there isn't any info.

This has nothing to do with thngs. It doesn't even touch the result. It is nohing more but evasive rambling. At best.

I am talking about availabilty of path info being the only variable. What does your rambling have to do with that. Nothing.

a reply to: korg trinity

Yeah you better run!

Cop out after cop out wih these people.

originally posted by: HotMale


I am talking about availabilty of path being the only variable. What does your rambling have to do with that. Nothing.

The physical action of 'the erasing of the info' requires and results in energy being emitted.

What is your argument as to why this would not possibly be relevant?

a reply to: ImaFungi

There is no reason for manyworlds. Superposition is not real (besides the fact that waves can pass over one another). The setup of apparatus is agreed to be important by everyone.

Sigh. Yet this is what is used to expalin Quantum results by materialists.

Why would you ignore aspects of the setup of the apparatus? That seems like it would be what the word ignorance means.

You don't get anything ever.

If these results were caused by the setup, materialsts wouldn't need arguments like manyworlds.

a reply to: ImaFungi

The physical action of 'the erasing of the info' requires and results in energy being emitted.

So you are again saying that the same supposed energetic interactions both collapse AND restore the wave function. Ridiculous, you can't have both.

originally posted by: HotMale


Sigh. Yet this is what is used to expalin Quantum results by materialists.

Your assumptions about me are lacking. I am an independent investigator and extreme skeptic. Of course I consider all science and arguments, but I do not have motives like job or application or funding to murk up my statements. I do not side with any particular person or ideology.

You don't get anything ever.

If these results were caused by the setup, materialsts wouldn't need arguments like manyworlds.

That is an extreme logical fallacy. I am arguing for myself. I am not on any side. I dont care about materialists, and theories that I dont agree with.

You are saying: These people are an authority, think they are right and smart, and they say this: Experiment says this: so if you say anything that sounds like you agree with scientists in anyway, you are wrong, because they are wrong.

I am speaking and arguing for myself, as a representative of my lifes effort in truth seeking and knowledge.

You dont get this entire situation.

When early quantum mechanic physicists were breaking ground, they discovered ala Heisenberg and amongst other things, that is was impossible to receive 100% of the physical details about a quanta.

This splintered the science world into 2 ways of thinking;

A) Einstein and hidden variables way: Just because we cannot know 100% of the physical details of a quanta, does not mean quanta does not possess 100% detail.

B) Because we cannot receive (know) 100% of the physical details about a quanta, the universe, or quanta, cannot possess 100% detail.


It has been known philosophically and intuitively for thousands of years, the impossibility of knowing 'the world in and of itself'.

Kants Noumenal and Phenomenal world. Is the essence of heisenberg uncertainty.

"The noumenon (/ˈnɒuːmɨnɒn/) is a posited object or event that is known (if at all) without the use of the senses.[1] The term is generally used in contrast with, or in relation to "phenomenon", which refers to anything that appears to, or is an object of, the senses. In Platonic philosophy, the noumenal realm was equated with the world of ideas known to the philosophical mind, in contrast to the phenomenal realm, which was equated with the world of sensory reality, known to the uneducated mind.[2] Much of modern philosophy has generally been skeptical of the possibility of knowledge independent of the senses, and Immanuel Kant gave this point of view its canonical expression: that the noumenal world may exist, but it is completely unknowable to humans. In Kantian philosophy, the unknowable noumenon is often linked to the unknowable "thing-in-itself" (Ding an sich, which could also be rendered as "thing-as-such" or "thing per se"), although how to characterize the nature of the relationship is a question yet open to some controversy."




The reason theoretical physics, but all of science because it is thought all of science is composed of physics, the existence of substance at all, and the law which rules it, has trouble at all, is because it is attempting to surpass the phenomenal world; it is attempting to more and more and more and more and better know how 'that which exists' exists exactly as it exists in and of itself.

This is very difficult, potentially impossible to do. That is why there are these difficulties at all.

Think about how much information we have of the world (chemistry, biology, physics) that cavemen didnt have. Cavemen just had their senses, (and their minds), just had their phenomenological world, how things appeared. We think our knowledge of chemistry, biology, and physics, is real information, real knowledge, of truth that exists, that there is reason the apple grows and rots and an exact way the body uses the nutrients of the apple. This information does not explicitly present itself to our senses.

So we are on the precipice of 'that which exists fundamentally in and of itself', and we are trying to know the fullest information about it. Obviously very difficult or impossible.

originally posted by: HotMale
a reply to: korg trinity

Yeah you better run!

Cop out after cop out wih these people.

I suggest you and everyone else watch the following...

originally posted by: HotMale
a reply to: ImaFungi

The physical action of 'the erasing of the info' requires and results in energy being emitted.

So you are again saying that the same supposed energetic interactions both collapse AND restore the wave function. Ridiculous, you can't have both.

If it is done with multiple lasers, yea there is a chance I can. Also, this is not about me, or you, or anyone. This is about truth and knowledge of it.

First we have to agree; Is the single quanta in question a wide ocean like wave?

If it is not, give an analogy to what it is closest to being like. A baseball? An ocean wave? Or a vibrating guitar string? Any other fundamental geometric substantial area representations that could come close to analogizing your comprehension of the fundamental test quanta in question?

It is most important to agree upon how might the substance, fundamental single quanta in question, exists, prior to entering the experiment.

Every single aspect is important in comprehending exactly what is occurring, how and why. If you neglect any one thing, you cannot be confident in any conclusion, if you do not know every single aspect of the material and energy involved in the experiment, then you can not say anything about the results or their nature.

HotMale:

I am talking about availabilty of path info being the only variable.

Obviously, 'availability of path info' is not the only variable. If it were the experiment would be redundant, and the result obtained null and void in providing edification.

Other variable to take note of - which affect knowing which path is taken - is the state of M1, 'on' or 'off'. Always bear in mind, that you can either measure at the slit, or you can measure at M2, you can't measure both at the same time. Do pay attention in science.

In fact, the state of M1 is what is interfering with the experiment!

korg trinity:

I suggest you and everyone else watch the following...

Yeah, I've watched that before. Interesting.