Quantum mechanics needs no consciousness (and the other way around)

a reply to: korg trinity

Lol, if I still have to elaborate then why would I consider your would-be answer to be of any value. Read up on experiments first.

I just posted what result indicates a role for consciousness, and why.

a reply to: Elysiumfire

What this means is that if consciousness is invoked in an interpretation of an experimental result, then the interpretation is wrong!

Ot it means your interpretation of consciousness is wrong.

You still have to explain why availability of info matters.

and if we are talking about experimental results, I just explained why your suggestion would have no effect on an experiment, since all info is not viewed as it happens anyway. Biological reaction times have nothing to do with it.

originally posted by: HotMale
a reply to: korg trinity

Lol, if I still have to elaborate then why would I consider your answer to be of any value. Read up on experiments first.

I just posted what result indicates a role for consciousness, and why.

Why should you consider my answer?? Oh I don't know perhaps because I'm currently employed to do Research into such areas as Quantum mechanics.......

And I've been through the whole thread and don't see any experimental data posted by you... so am confused to what are you referring to??

Perhaps put the defensive guard down for a moment and explain what it is you want to know and I will try and help.

a reply to: korg trinity

I still have to elaborate?

The fact that the availabilty of path info is the only variable in collapsing the wave function.

originally posted by: HotMale
a reply to: korg trinity

I still have to elaborate?

The fact that the availability of path info is the only variable in collapsing the wave function.

The path information of say a particle is indeed only available after the system the particle was part of has been set.

In other words, the trajectory of a particle is not set until it interacts with something that reduces the chances of the trajectory down to just one possibility.

The very act of watching whether that be a camera recording or a person effects the chances of that particle and therefore in the classically sense collapses the waveform.

And your question about this is?

a reply to: HotMale

What physically occurs when the information is erased?

There must be energetic consequences of such actions right?

a reply to: korg trinity

First specify the exact quanta you are arguing about.

Specify everything.

originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: korg trinity

First specify the exact quanta you are arguing about.

Specify everything.

It doesn't matter what the quanta is.. it only matters whether that quanta has interaction with a greater system... and whether that greater system has interaction.

This is where the idea of a Spin networks comes from.

a reply to: korg trinity

And your question about this is?

Amazing, I think I posted in the past 4 or 5 posts.

Why is the availability of path info the only variable for wave function collapse. You are not even touching this.


Path info available results in non interference pattern.

Path info unavailable results in interference pattern.

Why does it matter if the info is available. To what does it matter?

Why do you still have trouble understanding what am asking if this is your profession?

The very act of watching whether that be a camera recording or a person

You act like there is a difference. A camera is just an extension of the conscious observer.

HotMale:

Or...it means your interpretation of consciousness is wrong. You still have to explain why availability of info matters.

That's better. Good question.

Of course, I don't believe I am wrong about consciousness, and the fact that it lacks a 'role' of any kind. To your question on why information exchange matters...well, if there is a 'role', this is where it lies. Question...what is the 'role?

The role is a mechanism extant and universal. The role is energy correspondence/interactions, without which, there can be no reality. There can be no atomic nucleus without the most fundamental constituents of matter...the quarks. Quarks (and I am not being didactic here, I assume you already know this), are the only quantum entities on which all the known forces operate. Quarks are never separated from their partner, the energies required to separate them are simply colossal. Each quark pair (it is believed) exchange a unit of force between them called a 'gluon'. The closer the quark pair are to each other the weaker the gluon force, the further they are away from each other, the stronger the gluon force. So this 'role' of energy correspondence sets up an innate attraction and repulsion, in out, in out.

If there was no gluon interaction between the quark pair, there would be no reality, because quarks would not combine to form protons and neutrons, and thus no atomic structures. This implies much.

The wave function of sub-quanta are broken down by the forces exchanged between them. Consciousness is nowhere near this mechanism, it is a magnitude removed from this role. Of course, I should think that when I state energy interaction and you state 'info', we both refer to the same idea and the same principal?

originally posted by: HotMale


Path info available results in non interference pattern.

Path info unavailable results in interference pattern.

When the path info is erased, photons are emitted which re interact with the photons already emitted which would have resulted in non interference but result in interference.

This may not be the right answer. But there is a good reason. You are not attempting to think anything through. If you would have an honest discussion with me, we could both approach a better understanding. Name one thing you think you have considered in regards to these experiments that I havent.

korg trinity:

It doesn't matter what the quanta is.. it only matters whether that quanta has interaction with a greater system... and whether that greater system has interaction.

Would you agree, there can be no proxy for consciousness? Also, would a single quanta have the required energy value to interact with a greater system in that the greater system would actually be stimulated to re-interact. If the single quanta has been absorbed and assimilated by the greater system, what response can the greater system give?

You've intrigued me.

a reply to: Elysiumfire

Of course, I should think that when I state energy interaction and you state 'info', we both refer to the same idea and the same principal?

No we obviously do not, I am refering to actual info being derived from a detection, namely the path.

Again, in these experiments I am talking about, Quantum eraser experiments, the availabilty of said info is the only varaible. Again to what does it matter if concrete info is there or not?

Why do people jkeep responding with stuff that doesn't applly to what I am talking about. I am talking about an experimental result. Discuss it within the parameters of said experiment.

originally posted by: HotMale
a reply to: korg trinity

And your question about this is?

Amazing, I think I posted in the past 4 or 5 posts.

Why is the availability of path info the only variable for wave function collapse. You are not even touching this.


Path info available results in non interference pattern.

Path info unavailable results in interference pattern.

Why does it matter if the info is available. To what does it matter?

Why do you still have trouble understanding what am asking if this is your profession?

You are misunderstanding the primary principle of Quantum mechanics. That a Quantum object can be perceived as a waveform, that is the case ONLY because it's properties have not yet been set.

Trajectory is one property one might want to measure... but it is by no means the only one. The moment you make a measurement on one aspect of the quantum system you affect all of it instantaneously.

Do you see??

a reply to: ImaFungi

When the path info is erased, photons are emitted which re interact with the photons already emitted which would have resulted in non interference but result in interference.

This is the moronic "it is the setup of the apparatus" again. If this ridiculous notion is true there would be no Quantum dillemma and all scientists would agree on this and there would be no need for superposition and manyworlds interpretation and particle/ wave duality.

Go away.

All you do is obfuscate things.

HotMale:

No we obviously do not...

Oh dear. What the hell do you think you are reading as info? Detection only occurs out of interaction, we are pertaining to the same bloody thing!

...what does it matter if concrete info is there or not?

What is the point of the experiment? Measurement is the point of the experiment, the seeking of a value. You need this value, this info, to rate the experiment, so it matters greatly that there is concrete info to be gained, Duh!

What does the whole experiment hinge on? The participation, the equipment, the goal, or none of these. Perhaps, in the end, the experiment hinges entirely on the interpretation of the value obtained?

originally posted by: Elysiumfire
korg trinity:

It doesn't matter what the quanta is.. it only matters whether that quanta has interaction with a greater system... and whether that greater system has interaction.

Would you agree, there can be no proxy for consciousness? Also, would a single quanta have the required energy value to interact with a greater system in that the greater system would actually be stimulated to re-interact. If the single quanta has been absorbed and assimilated by the greater system, what response can the greater system give?

You've intrigued me.

Great Question!!

Based upon present calculations a quanta can indeed be absorbed into a greater system and have no net effect on that system. Though the quanta would be converted to an aspect of that system.

It is also conceivable that there could be a cascade effect that when a sufficiently disordered system interacts with a quanta that it would cause the whole system to revert to a quantum state.

There are experiments of this kind being conducted in the lab today using bose-einstein condensates.

Korg.

a reply to: korg trinity

Trajectory is one property one might want to measure... but it is by no means the only one. The moment you make a measurement on one aspect of the quantum system you affect all of it instantaneously.

Omg, still not touching the actual experiment.

This is bs, because when the info gained by this interaction is erased, there is an interference pattern, as if no interaction took place.

Again a poster is arguing something that doesn't apply, and is clearly ignorant of the experiment I am talking about.

How can I fully respect you people as peers if none of you is on the topic of the post they are replying to, none of the time?

Considering quantum mechanics govern the world in which we live in, I would suspect they play an important role in biology too, just as chemistry plays a vital role.

korg trinity:

...a quantum object can be perceived as a waveform...

Hold your bloody horses there! Quantum objects are not 'perceived' as waveforms there are 'abstracted' as waveforms. You are applying consciousness at a level it does not exist. The abstraction of the wave form occurs at macro reality in our brains, where consciousness does exist.

Of course, the abstraction of a waveform imagines a quantum entity as a snapshot, and not as a dynamic ever varying value of energy. We can know it as a waveform determined by the kind of experiment to be performed and the result we seek to obtain.