U.S. Is Poised to Put Heavy Weaponry in Eastern Europe

originally posted by: TonyS
I entirely agree. What I postulate is even worse is that the US has apparently intentionally violated agreements previously made with Russia about the expansion of NATO.

Which treaty/agreement says that, and where?

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: tsurfer2000h
you couldn't help yourself but encroach further on the Russian border.

How do you "encroach" on a boarder? Russia has it's boarder, end of story.

originally posted by: occamsrazor04

originally posted by: TonyS
I entirely agree. What I postulate is even worse is that the US has apparently intentionally violated agreements previously made with Russia about the expansion of NATO.

Which treaty/agreement says that, and where?

There wasn't any this is a myth the Russians were told. The US can't speak for NATO Only US forces. Any decision by NATO has to be voted on by member's.

a reply to: dragonridr

Not to mention NATO rejected Ukraine and Georgia. All Russia is doing is pushing countries to NATO, and making it less likely NATO will reject them.

a reply to: occamsrazor04

Well, many countries try to resist us imperialism (nato et al) but then we go in, instigate a coup, overthrow their democracy, and install a favorable dictator.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: occamsrazor04

Well, many countries try to resist us imperialism (nato et al) but then we go in, instigate a coup, overthrow their democracy, and install a favorable dictator.

Except that is a complete lie. Ukraine applied to be a member of NATO and was rejected. If we wanted them under the US "imperial" thumb we would have accepted their application.

a reply to: pexx421

That doesn't make sense at all. In order for a country to be admitted in to NATO they must be stable. With the current situation it will probably be decades before Ukraine is eligible. The only one who benefits is Russia.

originally posted by: occamsrazor04

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: occamsrazor04

Well, many countries try to resist us imperialism (nato et al) but then we go in, instigate a coup, overthrow their democracy, and install a favorable dictator.

Except that is a complete lie. Ukraine applied to be a member of NATO and was rejected. If we wanted them under the US "imperial" thumb we would have accepted their application.

Don't confuse him with facts how dare you. Ukraine wss refused and finally gave up in hind site I guess NATO should have accepted them and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: occamsrazor04

Well, many countries try to resist us imperialism (nato et al) but then we go in, instigate a coup, overthrow their democracy, and install a favorable dictator.

You mean like Russia did with Viktor right?? He was Russias pet and tried to turn the country towards Russia this became increasingly unpopular. Since Russia continued to abuse Ukraine setting up import terriffs on their product entering Russia. But when Ukraine threatened to do the same they cut off their gas supply. Did this over and over to ukraine threatened them with gas. Russia built up this anti Russian sentiment with their policies and it eventually caused rhe riots. Putin even had an oppertunity to stop them if he wanted but he chose not to. Now we know why with the release of the plan putin had involving Ukraine.

Putin needed the revolt to follow through on the plan he knew if he could get Ukraine to boil over Russia could take Crimea and more importantly their gas rights. Took them less then a week to steal the options from Ukraine as they made claims on gas rights that were already owned by a ukrainian company. Crimea has no rights to them putin got around this by annexing the territory into Russia this means mineral rights were transfered. Had Crimea remained independent or part of Ukraine the mineral rights would have stayed with Ukraine.

a reply to: dragonridr

This is my opinion only, but the US thought if they appeased Russia and showed them they would not take in all the former Russian Slave States that Russia would calm down and act peaceful. Appeasement never works. Madmen always see bogeymen.

a reply to: occamsrazor04

There appear to have been verbal "assurances", no signed "agreements". But some of the Russian leadership seems to have interpreted these "assurances" as "agreements of understanding". There's apparently quite a history of slight of hand going on vis-a-vis negotiations by various US officials. Its rather interesting history.
See:
www.spiegel.de...

csis.org...
www.armscontrol.org...
blogs.wsj.com...

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

The true what? They can snip the truth all they want. It is the blatant truth. I stand by what was said. I am not anti Yankee. I like the USA in general, it is a unique wonderful experiment that has come to rule much of the world and save it too, it acts largely for the better of us all. In the last century thank god you existed, without the USA we'd have been swallowed up the Nazis or commies for sure. I just do believe the USA has got it wrong with Russia and its sphere of influence.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

I just do believe the USA has got it wrong with Russia and its sphere of influence.

Well he didn't help himself with Georgia, and now Ukraine.

The problem is when Putin wants to spread his sphere of influence it usually involves his military invading a country then lying about why they did it.

You can spread your sphere of influence without invading or annexing land from sovereign countries.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

I just do believe the USA has got it wrong with Russia and its sphere of influence.

Well he didn't help himself with Georgia, and now Ukraine.

The problem is when Putin wants to spread his sphere of influence it usually involves his military invading a country then lying about why they did it.

You can spread your sphere of influence without invading or annexing land from sovereign countries.

Georgia and Ukraine both attempted to join NATO. This is a no no for Russia which still is recovering from the last time the western and central European nations crept up to its border. 30 million dead due to western capitalists fear of socialism. Gas chambers and machine gun pits for millions of them, a country totally wrecked with people still alive today that remember this. Surely you see why the Russians are just a little nervy about their borders?

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

And there are still those in Ukraine who remember the Holodomor. Surely you can see why there those in Ukraine who want nothing to do with Russia.

ETA: It's also worth pointing out that just as many, if not more, Russians were killed by Stalin as were killed in WWII. So if we're using te past as an excuse maybe the Russian people should be more in fear of Putin than the West.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

smell like BS...

putin and Russia are not the best democracy in the world, but c'mon..USA, Italy... we can not say we live in democracy, is oligarchy like everywere...

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

And there are still those in Ukraine who remember the Holodomor. Surely you can see why there those in Ukraine who want nothing to do with Russia.

ETA: It's also worth pointing out that just as many, if not more, Russians were killed by Stalin as were killed in WWII. So if we're using te past as an excuse maybe the Russian people should be more in fear of Putin than the West.

Very true, you can understand why Ukraine is very concerned by Russia. However, as a European I don't fear what Ukraine can do to me....It's practically zilch. Russia on the other hand can have me wiped out in a couple of minutes, that makes me very concerned about pushing Putin too far in his own backyard.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

"The problem is when Putin wants to spread his sphere of influence it usually involves his military invading a country then lying about why they did it.

You can spread your sphere of influence without invading or annexing land from sovereign countries. "

yeah, you can choose a working country (no more no less than majority of others) just bomb it as hell, turn his cities in a bunch of ruins, destroy the entire structure of the society, than you give weapons and money to more than one group of power...and leave!!!

AAAAAND........IT WILL LOOK LIKE IRAQ...

...UsaUsaUsa...


OR

You can choose another country, fund legitimate protesters with one hand, fund and send agents taken in yor rightist galaxy to help and train more neonazis (from the country to be "spreaded with our influence") and make a real mess... change government and start to make a real war on those regions who don't accept the coup! of course killing innocent people and doing nazis stuff with nazis style!!!

well done NATO!!!

oh I almost forgot.. Our MSM called them "heroes of Maidan", they had shot on police, burnt people... and when people go protesting here, in Italy, with old people, families etc.. we are called criminals, beated by police for defending our homes, rights and environment...

When I see that protest lauded from the same news channels that comment our protests, everithing became very clear!

LINKS TO BE TRANSLATED:

www.voltairenet.org...
lilin.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it...

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Then maybe since Russia seems to have no desire to give Crimea back they should give Ukraine their nukes back. I mean that was essentially the deal in the first place Crimea for nukes. Hell with that kind if protection maybe Ukraine won't run straight into the open arms of NATO in a few decades once they get their country stabilized.