Tony Blair new role includes making HOLOCAUST denial a criminal offense.

Sometimes the simplest reason is the most accurate:

They are offering him high position in their world government?
Or Mister Blair is himself bucking for said POSition.

# 452

originally posted by: Xcathdra

Considering France openly collaborated with the Nazi government I think they have a right to ensure the holocaust conversation is kept in context.

I think it says a lot for nations involved in the Nazi atrocities to try and prevent the topic from being buried under a false position. It certainly says a lot when Russia, who was directly involved with the Nazis from the start. [asses a law that hides its participation.

Yes the Holocaust and this matter shouldn't be buried.
But passing laws that make the "denial" or as I would put it, questioninig of the event, a criminal offense, is in fact collaborating into putting the matter under the rug. An ongoing debate on several aspects of the official story, would rather help keep the holocaust memory alive.

The holocaust is fact.

This is a rather vague statement. What are you trying to say when you say the holocaust?
I believe it happened, but I have serious doubts on a number of things about it. Let alone numbers and statistics, all historical process are complex, so debate is a healthy practice when dealing with this kind of fenomena.
I find it rather strange, that some people claim, everything regarding the holocaust has been fully studied and comprenhended, and that historians should not look any further into the matter. We oughta debate everything, cause that was science is. Science starts with questions, and we shouldn't make the questioning of a historical process a crime.

I'm sure there are many things about the holocaust we got right. But many other might still be a little bit blurry. So when I say your statement is vague, I'm trying to say that whilst we may have the general outline right, many details and innerworks of how we got to a holocaust may not be fully understood yet.
Was Hitler's plan to kill all jews? Was he just trying to kill everyone who wasn't aryan? Was it Hitler personal desire, or a general desire of the whole nazi party, who came up with the idea? Was the war planned from the beginning? What was the responsability of the people and groups involved? What was the point, was there one or was it just sheer malice?

The officla definition of the Holocaust is this:

The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime

I'm not so sure all of this is 100% accurate, IMO we should still look into the matter. And I believe making the questioning of this definition a criminal offense, is denying the healthy practice of science, as I stated earlier.

a reply to: gosseyn

Why isn't a criminal offense "denying" the armenian genocide?

a reply to: payta

It does not make questioning the event illegal. It makes denying it ever occurred illegal. There are plenty of facts showing the holocaust indeed occurred.

Maybe Tony Blair isn't the best man for the job. He was Middle East peace envoy, the Middle East has got worse since he took that job. I've never known holocaust denial to be an issue in the UK. It is part of mainstream history here. I can only assume it's targeting the Islamic extremism that has been on the rise throughout Europe and the UK

a reply to: Xcathdra

There's a thin line between questioning and denying. Actually to "deny the facts" is an euphemism for questioning the sources.

"The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime".
If I go to the sources, and claim that the Holocaust isn't the killing of 6 but 10 millions, I'm denying that the holocaust, understood as the killing of 6 mill, in fact occurred. That's what they are banning, the "denial" of the official holocaust story.

a reply to: payta

what they are going after are the people who claim the holocaust never occurred. Those who state the governments never conspired to kill 6 million jews and that the murder of 6 million jews never occurred.

when one can't prove the OS is true
one makes questioning it illegal
instead of proving the debate to a close

originally posted by: Danbones
when one can't prove the OS is true
one makes questioning it illegal
instead of proving the debate to a close

Except in this case it revolves around people who think the holocaust never occurred and that Nazi officials never murdered anyone. That's the denial in question even when there is a truck load of facts proving it occurred.

People can debate numbers all they want but it doesn't change the facts.

a reply to: projectbane

I do think its actually time to leave what we are told about the holocaust in the past today. Europe is at peace and Israel has been set up, so why keep it permanently being jangled in front of people who were not even alive when it happened? There are a number of genocides in the past that are equally as vile yet they don't get the same mass media attention because other people want to forget and get on with their lives. Too much forcing this issue which doesn't relate to people today will only make jewish people disliked for being perceived as thinking themselves above the rest of the world. A lot of people died during WW2 yet they don't seem to count for Tony Blair and his jewish banking backers.

Also there is the little bit that is not discussed in that there were not 6 million jewish people living in Europe during the time of the holocaust - surely we could do with a little bit of truth coming into the holocaust equation and arch daemon blair could well do with facing that - among other atrocities he is responsible for. However there are so many jewish people within the legal system of many countries I dare say they will fiddle it through to appease this so-called sacred minority as the expense of freedom of speech for rest of the world. The least discussed topic in the world is jewish accountability as to why their history is as it is.

Why anyone would want to employ a bare faced liar with blood on his hands is totally beyond my understanding. He is not a politicians any more and should only be conspicuous by his absence. IMHO he should be before the Hague standing trial for genicide.

a reply to: Shiloh7

There were not 6million jews living in Europe at the time? The Nazis own records have proven there were.

Making discussion of the "facts" illegal is nothing more than state sponsored censorship and actually denies people the opportunity to even question the details as they are currently presented. Too many times, as soon as anyone questions the official line, they are labeled a "denier" thus ending all debate.
The truth should NOT need laws to prosecute people questioning it. Prosecuting those who question in fact proves that they have something to hide as, if it is in fact truth, that should become apparent from questioning and research. The numbers who allegedly died at Auschwitz, for example, have been dropped considerably over time, but to question that that alone shows the numbers were / are wrong as historically presented, can also get you prosecuted in some places.

Jews are nothing more than another self opinionated religious cult, whose beliefs put them above all others. Unfortunately, they seem to occupy some very high places around the world today, helped of course by the Holocaust narrative and labeling any opposition as anti-semitic and stifling criticism. Most people are conditioned to shy away from any debate by that constant conditioning, and those who are aren't are prosecuted.

Once again, so much for free speech!

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Danbones
when one can't prove the OS is true
one makes questioning it illegal
instead of proving the debate to a close

Except in this case it revolves around people who think the holocaust never occurred and that Nazi officials never murdered anyone. That's the denial in question even when there is a truck load of facts proving it occurred.

People can debate numbers all they want but it doesn't change the facts.

You rely too much on the facts of the official story.
As I said before questioning the facts is questioning the evidence, cause historians get no facts, but the record of the events. What they recover are not facts, they get evidence written or material of an past event.
The event in fact occured, but we can't get to it. So we get not a "fact" but a source that leads us to believe an event took place. We do know as fact though, that these documents exist, but what do they say and how we understand them that's another matter altogether.
Therefore we have no facts about 6 mill jews being killed, we have an amount of sources that makes us believe it happened. But these sources can be misinterpreted, forged, incompleted, etc. That's why history is so controversial, and as I said, I find it hard to believe we got everything sorted out, and there's no more need to look into it.

Look, I'm not saying the holocaust (As the germans killing jews) didn't happen. I just think it's crazy to ban the investigation of a historical event, whatever it may be.
"Denial" is an euphemism, is an empty word. To say denial is a crime, sounds much better and less harmful than to say questioning is a crime.

The change of any aspect of the official definition of holocaust, signifies the denial of its existence. The example I gave claiming that there were more than 6 million jews killed proves my point, Im denying that the holocaust (understood as the systematic killing of 6 mill jews) took place.

originally posted by: Britguy
Making discussion of the "facts" illegal is nothing more than state sponsored censorship and actually denies people the opportunity to even question the details as they are currently presented. Too many times, as soon as anyone questions the official line, they are labeled a "denier" thus ending all debate.

Exactly, so to say, they are not banning investigators only deniers, is a lie. Because anyone who dares to say the official story may be wrong, is automatically labeled as a "denier" and a jew-hater. Instead of seeing at the facts these "jewhaters" have to offer, they discard their claims due to their supposed pro-nazi mentality.

The truth should NOT need laws to prosecute people questioning it. Prosecuting those who question in fact proves that they have something to hide as, if it is in fact truth, that should become apparent from questioning and research.

This is exactly what we read, when we grab a novel like 1984. Yet when it happens in our lifetime, and in our own socities, we don't get to see how wrong and authoritarian it is. They are promoting propaganda and banning science.

a reply to: and14263

Like a house building burning down. Reichstag fire and 9/11. The official story might be hogwash( which it obviously is), but it is a fact that human beings died there.

Like claiming 9/11 never happened just because the official story is bull#. The Bush family, the Rockefellers and the Rothchilds were big players in the rise of Hitler, prior to and after the holocaust. They financed Hitler which means they are to blame for the holocaust too, not just Hitler. So why one earth would a family (the rothchilds) that were to create the "Jewish" state of Israel also be part in financing Hitler and the holocaust? It was done on purpose, because if it wasn't there would be no such thing as Israel today. If there was no 9/11 there would also be a million more Iraqis living today.
People did die. We're just not told what exactly happened.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: payta

what they are going after are the people who claim the holocaust never occurred. Those who state the governments never conspired to kill 6 million jews and that the murder of 6 million jews never occurred.

Anyone who questions the OS is thrown into that group of "people who claim the holocaust never happened".
So you either go along with the OS, or you are labeled as a "denier" and banished from society.

a reply to: payta

When the facts come from the Nazis themselves....

a reply to: Boeing777

Personally I think the Holocaust did happen but not in the way they keep saying it did.

But can I say that? Is it legal for me to doubt the apparent facts of the Holocaust?

See, that's the thing about the Holocaust. If it is factually true as in all of it then why would you have to throw people in jail just for questioning it? Wouldn't that be looked upon as trying to hide something? Hide some untruth's for example?

Other Holocausts in the past done by the Jews are certainly not protected by a law. Like the Bolshevik Revolution where Jews in Russia killed 20 Million + people. That's way more than the Nazi Holocaust. Why is that not protected by Law to question?

Seems a bit two faced to stop people questioning 1 event whilst not stopping people for questioning others!

And it's Israel that is stopping people with this Law. That seems a bit dubious because it was the Israeli Leaders that were directly involved in the creation of the Holocaust through their Minion Hitler!!

a reply to: Xcathdra

History is a lot more complex than you think it is

originally posted by: payta
a reply to: Xcathdra

History is a lot more complex than you think it is

sure.. however in this instance what we are talking about are people who are emphatic that the holocaust never occurred, even when the country responsible for it admitted it occurred.