Despite lower crime rates, support for gun rights increases

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Hmm lets see 114 fatal stabbings, 13 beaten to death and 5 'other' on teenagers in London in 10 years!! I couldn't find any stats on mass stabbings maybe you can.

I know i sleep safer knowing there are hardly any guns out there in the UK.

www.citizensreportuk.org...

a reply to: PhoenixOD

Yet children accidentally shoot people all the time.

They can't kill people with tanks either. That wasn't the point.

Murder is less about the murder weapon and more about intent. Or uncontrolled enpotional response. Thats the parents fault. Not teaching children coping skills to deal with embarrassment, teasing, etc, is surely going to create problems regardless of the chosen form of retaliation.

Gun deaths by accident is rare compared to intentional. By kids is extremely rare.

Nice switch.

Things don't cause crime, how blind are you to that simple truth?

Not at all is my guess.

originally posted by: PhoenixOD
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Hmm lets see 114 fatal stabbings, 13 beaten to death and 5 'other' on teenagers in London in 10 years!! I couldn't find any stats on mass stabbings maybe you can.

I know i sleep safer knowing there are hardly any guns out there in the UK.

www.citizensreportuk.org...

Sorry...did I say mass stabbings, or teenagers only in my post? Violent crime and stabbings I believe was the term used. And if we are going to jump, then here, let me reference a highly gun controlled country with plenty of mass stabbings and mostly against children....

China 2010-2012

Source

25 dead, 115 injured, no guns involved.

2014 Kunming:

Source

33 dead, 140 injured

The 2014 Kunming attack was a terrorist attack[3][4][5] in the Chinese city of Kunming, Yunnan, on 1 March 2014. The incident, targeted against civilians, left 29 civilians and 4 perpetrators[1] dead with more than 140 others injured.[4][6] The attack has been called a "massacre" by some news media

So....was it the knife or the people that caused these deaths....that is a LOT of death by a knife, especially that last attack, but I am guessing your argument will be that it would have been a lot more if it was a gun? To which I would say it would have been a lot less had some of the civilian population been allowed to carry, OR if the police could have actually responded in time to stop it....

a reply to: intrptr

Murder is less about the murder weapon and more about intent. Or uncontrolled enpotional response. Thats the parents fault. Not teaching children coping skills to deal with embarrassment, teasing, etc, is surely going to create problems regardless of the chosen form of retaliation.

Its also about the capability of the person. A 9 stone weakling armed with a military style assault rifle is far more capable of a mass killing than one without one.

a reply to: PhoenixOD

guns are the great equalizer in society of bullies....

not being a MMA fighter I am happy for this.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: PhoenixOD
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Asking the question in the first place speaks volumes of your level of understanding of guns.

..says the person who admits they didn't know the reason behind the question in the first place lol

And like you said, nothing can stop accidents or non-criminals from going crazy, but they don't all go on shooting sprees.

But the majority of countries with stricter gun laws dont have as many shooting sprees.

There is ONE common denominator though, with ALL violent acts...they are done by HUMANS. But hey, lets ignore the REAL problem and go after the guns......

Yes you are right, done by humans who would find it a lot harder to shoot up schools or theaters without easy access to guns. The gun facilitates the easy killing of innocent humans at a distance by anyone with enough force to pull a trigger.

A 9yr girl old girl would find it hard to accidentally beat an instructor to death with bat after losing control of it unlike the girl at White Hills, Ariz did with a fully automatic Uzi submachine gun.

Again....you are referencing stories that have no basis here. And the problem with your argument is that I don't have to justify anything to you. You, on the other hand, seem to feel the need to justify your feelings. My feelings are law.

Anywho...the majority of countries with stricter gun laws or bans ALSO have more violent crime. The reason for this? Because criminals know they can do whatever they want and the only thing they have to worry about at the most is a knife, but typically those with your mindset would seem to just curl into a ball and let anyone do what they want.

They 9 year old girl you referenced, again, has no part in this discussion. It was an accident. And one that I would never have let my older kids be near. Kids have no business around fully automatic weapons.

Your arguments are always the same, and none of them hold up to anything that amounts to a real argument. You obviously have no experience with firearms of any sort, nor have any education on them. The only place you can come from on your stance are what you read in the paper and online. No real world experience while posting an opinion is nice and all, but taken with a grain of salt.

Its ALL totally relevant. You guys will keep having "accidents" and kids shooting their parents, little siblings, machine gunning their teacher./father by mistake while you still cling like animals to a passage in the constitution that has ZERO relevance in 2015.

I dont have to justify anythigbn to you either...certyainly not my belief that you gun nuts care more about your guns than dead kids/teens/adults.

Its quite sickening.

Ok...enjoy your violent crime stats being higher than the US and all your stabbings. I will enjoy my guns.

Love that you believe everything you see on the news as being how we live here. Ever stop to think the news is really just there to sell a story and not report on real news? Mind = Blown right?

So I guess we should believe the UK is being taken over by violent muslims and they are banning anyone non-muslim from neighborhoods all over there right?

oh, i guess the news papers and channels must have made up those stories...even hired lots of extras to make it look like it really happeend. wow.

You enjoy your guns, i know you will...and dont spare any thought for your fellow men and kids who are hurt by them every day...after all...its written on a stupid piece of paper. So it must be held as gospel.

No...they run stories for their shock value to get hits on their site and more viewers on their station. News sells. Fact is that these are not that common, and killings in many other countries are FAR more common than in the US.

I will enjoy my guns and my "stupid piece of paper" that allows me more rights than you apparently have. And no, a common misconception is equating law with religion....this is not gospel....it is law.

I dont understand. if we are seeing real stories coming out of the US every day almost about shootings...then surely that means that those events are happening...how many do you read about from europe?

a reply to: ProleUK

You sure do know your hyperbole, I will give you that.

Hit the Christian angle. Check
Try the Fear thing. Check
"It's for the children" pitch. Check

I bet we Pro-2nd people here can predict the next 5 angles you will try.

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: PhoenixOD
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Asking the question in the first place speaks volumes of your level of understanding of guns.

..says the person who admits they didn't know the reason behind the question in the first place lol

And like you said, nothing can stop accidents or non-criminals from going crazy, but they don't all go on shooting sprees.

But the majority of countries with stricter gun laws dont have as many shooting sprees.

There is ONE common denominator though, with ALL violent acts...they are done by HUMANS. But hey, lets ignore the REAL problem and go after the guns......

Yes you are right, done by humans who would find it a lot harder to shoot up schools or theaters without easy access to guns. The gun facilitates the easy killing of innocent humans at a distance by anyone with enough force to pull a trigger.

A 9yr girl old girl would find it hard to accidentally beat an instructor to death with bat after losing control of it unlike the girl at White Hills, Ariz did with a fully automatic Uzi submachine gun.

Again....you are referencing stories that have no basis here. And the problem with your argument is that I don't have to justify anything to you. You, on the other hand, seem to feel the need to justify your feelings. My feelings are law.

Anywho...the majority of countries with stricter gun laws or bans ALSO have more violent crime. The reason for this? Because criminals know they can do whatever they want and the only thing they have to worry about at the most is a knife, but typically those with your mindset would seem to just curl into a ball and let anyone do what they want.

They 9 year old girl you referenced, again, has no part in this discussion. It was an accident. And one that I would never have let my older kids be near. Kids have no business around fully automatic weapons.

Your arguments are always the same, and none of them hold up to anything that amounts to a real argument. You obviously have no experience with firearms of any sort, nor have any education on them. The only place you can come from on your stance are what you read in the paper and online. No real world experience while posting an opinion is nice and all, but taken with a grain of salt.

Its ALL totally relevant. You guys will keep having "accidents" and kids shooting their parents, little siblings, machine gunning their teacher./father by mistake while you still cling like animals to a passage in the constitution that has ZERO relevance in 2015.

I dont have to justify anythigbn to you either...certyainly not my belief that you gun nuts care more about your guns than dead kids/teens/adults.

Its quite sickening.

Ok...enjoy your violent crime stats being higher than the US and all your stabbings. I will enjoy my guns.

Love that you believe everything you see on the news as being how we live here. Ever stop to think the news is really just there to sell a story and not report on real news? Mind = Blown right?

So I guess we should believe the UK is being taken over by violent muslims and they are banning anyone non-muslim from neighborhoods all over there right?

oh, i guess the news papers and channels must have made up those stories...even hired lots of extras to make it look like it really happeend. wow.

You enjoy your guns, i know you will...and dont spare any thought for your fellow men and kids who are hurt by them every day...after all...its written on a stupid piece of paper. So it must be held as gospel.

No...they run stories for their shock value to get hits on their site and more viewers on their station. News sells. Fact is that these are not that common, and killings in many other countries are FAR more common than in the US.

I will enjoy my guns and my "stupid piece of paper" that allows me more rights than you apparently have. And no, a common misconception is equating law with religion....this is not gospel....it is law.

I dont understand. if we are seeing real stories coming out of the US every day almost about shootings...then surely that means that those events are happening...how many do you read about from europe?

None....I don't read about Europe. When I go there I tend to enjoy smaller villages in Italy and France. I stay out of largely populated cities as I live in one and when I travel I tend to get as far from that as possible.

Shootings happen in the US every single day, just as stabbings happen in the US every single day. There are gangs and there are criminals. These are the ones you hear about....criminal activity...because it sells news. There is no story in a guy like me that carries a gun every day and nothing happens. It is not news if a guy like me prevents a robbery because I have a gun, simply because it would only be local news and there is no "shock" value associated with it.

Crime happens worldwide every single day....guns are not the problem. Do you think if there were no guns in the US that the news would suddenly dry up? Nope....you would start hearing about beatings and slashings and whatever other means that CRIMINALS are using to commit crimes.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

For most of the 1990s and the subsequent decade, a substantial majority of Americans believed it was more important to control gun ownership than to protect gun owners’ rights. But in December 2014, the balance of opinion flipped: For the first time, more Americans say that protecting gun rights is more important than controlling gun ownership, 52% to 46%.

Why has public opinion shifted about gun control? As my colleagues at Pew Research Center have documented elsewhere, some of this is related to politics, as Republicans have become far more supportive of gun rights during the Obama years. The rise in support for gun rights has also spanned many other regional and demographic groups.

Despite lower crime rates, support for gun rights increases

Well it is about time people got their heads on straight. So it seems that people are finally coming around to the fact that having a gun DOES make you safer from a criminal element...

But there may be another factor behind this shift: Americans’ changing perceptions about crime. Over the past 25 years or so, there has been a divergence between American perceptions about crime and actual crime rates. And those who worried about crime had favored stricter gun control; now, they tend to desire keeping the laws as they are or loosening gun control. In short, we are at a moment when most Americans believe crime rates are rising and when most believe gun ownership – not gun control – makes people safer.

I find this refreshing coming from Pew Research....

This was a great research article on the matter and really gets to the meat of the argument and the actual facts.

I am a big supporter of gun rights. I have no problem with people owning guns and carrying them. I DO believe it makes the world safer knowing that everyone can and likely will defend themselves against criminals when needed.

I agree with you this is encouraging, as you say...coming from Pew Reserch, a famously leftist outfit that typically skews its polls to get the result they intend.

One problem I see we mustn't lose sight of however is the oft quoted refrain to the effect, "despite lower crime rates".
That's about as BS as the official unemployment rate. Starting with local Police Departments on up to the FBI, the crime statistics are annually cooked to make it appear the crime rate is declining. Its all about politics and human nature. If you're the mayor of Indy, you'll pressure your Police Chief to report lower overall crime rates to get reelected and to increase your popularity. Those bogus numbers get fed up the food chain to the FBI. Then, and usually without much media fan fare, every 10 years or so, the FBI does an audit on the cities crime statistics and finds they've been fudging the numbers. They get a nasty letter from the FBI and the locals don't care because the Chief and the Mayor that did the deed have moved on to greener pastures.

Just a thought. We need to be alert to challenging the Propaganda Polling agencies crime stats.

It always strikes me as odd when people from the UK or Australia or any other country that banned private ownership of firearms asserts that their way is the best. But mostly those from the UK. Especially when you consider the reason that a America is a country to begin with is that we as a nation decided that we didn't want to be a part of the British Empire anymore. That we wanted to be a different country. The trash talking of the Constitution just sounds like sour grapes to me.

But if you are comfortable with the fact that you cannot purchase a firearm for target shooting, investment, collecting or a host of other reasons outside of committing crime, murder and mayhem. Go ahead and be happy with your life. Enjoy paying that yearly TV ownership tax. And nearly 45% tax on income so a bunch of deadbeat chavs can stab each other until the get the bright idea they can kick in your door have enough cash, food and roof over their heads that they wouldn't do such things (so it must be out of boredom since everything else is provided).

Oh wait, that is where violent crime is concentrated as well. Places where people are provided for on the taxpayer's dime. At least here in the US the criminal must weigh the odds as to if we are armed of not.

originally posted by: swanne
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Some day man will need to learn how to live without crutches.

They are all obsessed about safety. "More guns running rampant in the street is the solution", they say.

But this obsession with safety... is it not what Benjamin Franklin warned us against?

Is a nation filled with guns, a nation in which every citizens are in a mini-cold war with his neighbour ("At the first sign of trouble we'll shoot each other and ask questions later"), the true and ultimate goal of the Constitution?

I think not.

Ben Franklin thinks you don't know what you're talking about.

“The thoughtful reader may wonder, why wasn’t Jefferson’s proposal of ‘No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms’ adopted by the Virginia legislature? They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, "Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor", November 11, 1755

The last part of that quote is often presented without the proper context. Franklin was saying that those who would deny gun rights in the name of "safety" are fools.

originally posted by: PhoenixOD


But the majority of countries with stricter gun laws dont have as many shooting sprees.

Several countries have gun laws that are less-strict or on the same level as the U.S. and those countries also don't have as many shooting sprees. It's not about guns, it's mental health or something else... but not guns or access to guns.

Every single point you're trying to make or will try to make can be ripped apart by facts. Trust me, I've done this dance with anti-gunners many times and the facts don't lie.

a reply to: PhoenixOD



See, for the children.

originally posted by: macman
I bet we Pro-2nd people here can predict the next 5 angles you will try.

1) The Second Amendment never meant you can own modern weapons
2) Countries with no citizen-owned firearms are so much safer
3) Legal firearm ownership promotes violence
4) You want every-single-person to have a gun, even crazy people
5) If you only learned some mad martial arts skillz like me you could disarm an assailant with a pencil

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: macman
I bet we Pro-2nd people here can predict the next 5 angles you will try.

1) The Second Amendment never meant you can own modern weapons
2) Countries with no citizen-owned firearms are so much safer
3) Legal firearm ownership promotes violence
4) You want every-single-person to have a gun, even crazy people
5) If you only learned some mad martial arts skillz like me you could disarm an assailant with a pencil

I would like to add a boomerang/slingshot/blowgun into this equation somewhere......

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

You forgot to add something about having a sweet sword at your house..........or a big dog. Or how about just knowing the "bad" places and not going there. And avoiding bad people.

originally posted by: macman
And avoiding bad people.

Kinda tough to avoid the bad people when I have to look myself in the mirror every day.

I have to resist the urge to point a finger-gun at my reflection and go, 'Pew, pew, pew!'

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

You forgot to add something about having a sweet sword at your house..........or a big dog. Or how about just knowing the "bad" places and not going there. And avoiding bad people.

Well...I only have knives, no swords. My dog is only 6 months old and will only be about 45 pounds when full grown and is really just for the family to love on....Australian Labradoodle's are not exactly attack dogs. I know all the bad places and try to avoid bad people, but I carry my gun just in case I happen to run into a bad person or a bad place when I travel that I did not know was bad prior to my traveling there.

I could only imagine what a guy robbing a store at gun point would do if I pull a Highlander style sword on him from under my duster jacket....SWEEEEET!

Guns were absolutely rampant in colonial America, and there didn't seem to be a huge problem with random acts of violence. They're prevalent in Switzerland, as well. Guess what? They're prevalent among police, too. You don't see them randomly shooting up schools, right? Why is that? It's about the person holding the gun, not the gun itself. Arm a bunch of priests, and nothing happens. Arm a bunch of gang bangers, and watch the neighborhood descend into chaos. I submit that it has everything to do with a person's moral compass, not the tool you put in his hand.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

I could only imagine what a guy robbing a store at gun point would do if I pull a Highlander style sword on him from under my duster jacket....SWEEEEET!

Erh mah gerd, you so have to scream, 'There can only be onnnnneeeee!', while you take a slice at his neck.

Sweetness personified.


Oh, and wear a kilt.