Why we collectively may not discover life in the universe.

For the record, I don't really think anything like what the OP is suggesting is taking place.

But hypothetically, think about this: alien life is confirmed, the public know about it. Maybe it's even intelligent alien life. There's some upheaval, but eventually society wraps it's collective brain around the fact that we're not alone in the universe. What happens next? A mass exodus into space. I don't think you could keep people on the ground. And when all the cattle keep breaking their fences to go and schmooze with the neighbors, who will be left for the masters to strap into the milk machine?

A human race united in it's desire to meet the rest of the universe is a human race uncontrollable by religion or governments.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
For the record, I don't really think anything like what the OP is suggesting is taking place.

But hypothetically, think about this: alien life is confirmed, the public know about it. Maybe it's even intelligent alien life. There's some upheaval, but eventually society wraps it's collective brain around the fact that we're not alone in the universe. What happens next? A mass exodus into space. I don't think you could keep people on the ground. And when all the cattle keep breaking their fences to go and schmooze with the neighbors, who will be left for the masters to strap into the milk machine?

A human race united in it's desire to meet the rest of the universe is a human race uncontrollable by religion or governments.

I'd argue that given the amount of time all that would take to play out that governments and religions would adapt and evolve just as they did with Galileo, Copernicus, Bohr, Einstein, etc.

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: JadeStar

What do you mean we can't hide the sky?


There are terrorist attacks using airplanes, there are missing airplanes, there are meteorites we didn't know were coming, we have asteroids we don't know were coming. What do amateur astronomers observe, other than an announced meteor shower? I have my serious doubts that even amateur astronomers can see EVERYTHING.

My point is that so long as something is "up there" there is a non-zero chance someone not "in the know" can find it. And yes amateur astronomers often DO find secret things.

There's a whole amateur satellite tracking community who has been the first to tell the world about the goings on of Chinese and Russian anti-satellite tests, the US Air Force's secret mini-shuttle doing maneuvers, etc.

So Nasa and all the way down to amateur astronomers can identify a spy satellite? How do they do that? What is the point of having a spy satellite then? Or do you think things can get launched undetected by many?

The act of launching something into space is one of the least quiet things someone can do.

What that something does once its in space is another matter entirely, but even then there are people, and enough of them exist who do this as a hobby, who will identify and maybe even give away some of what the government, organization or private enterprise is not saying.

A lot can be deduced from orbits and trajectories and even more can be deduced from signal or spectroscopic analysis.

a reply to: tanka418

Tanka I was being very sarcastic with the comment about amateur astronomers. Do you record what you see through your telescope? Have you ever observed and recored one of our 100's of satellites or space junk?

a reply to: JadeStar

Does the amateur satellite tracking community have a name, or a website? I know launching something into space is extremely loud, one of the loudest things on the decibel scale. How about do things make a sound if no one is around to hear it?

Would you take pride in working at a launch center and find out the next morning at work they did a secret launch at 2am with 100 workers? Would you feel admirable or even patriotic to just keep the news to yourself, family, and co-workers because broadcasting it out to the world is not the most professional thing to do in your career? You wouldn't know the mission or the tech, just the fact there are unscheduled launches in the middle of the night organized by a different crew of people.

Do you agree there is a tad bit of embarrassment that happens on getting fully exposed online, same with in public? Have people ever been embarrassed or feared ridicule therefor never shared their secret? If you half way know something, don't know what it's really about, but know if is something significant, are you going to risk your career or reputation to share something that is so crazy that you could easily be wrong?

There are many industries where at a certain level of involvement you naturally develop a character trait to keep things relative to the circle of people you are involved with. Like the locker room drama of a sports team, the general public doesn't know everything, same with a sales office, or a law office. The implausibility that you believe in that people can't organize an event like that is interesting. There is a whole underground world of crime that has lots of organization and things going unnoticed by many.

How does a spectroscopic analysis determine if a satellite is a spy satellite?

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: tanka418

Tanka I was being very sarcastic with the comment about amateur astronomers. Do you record what you see through your telescope? Have you ever observed and recored one of our 100's of satellites or space junk?

Check this out....recorded with nothing but a small amateur sized telescope and video camera:

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: JadeStar

Does the amateur satellite tracking community have a name, or a website?

Hmmm.... I don't know. Most seem to operate their own blogs/websites.

Here's one:

sattrackcam.blogspot.com...

I know launching something into space is extremely loud, one of the loudest things on the decibel scale. How about do things make a sound if no one is around to hear it?

Well then you have that whole light show at night and smoke trail in the day....

Would you take pride in working at a launch center and find out the next morning at work they did a secret launch at 2am with 100 workers? Would you feel admirable or even patriotic to just keep the news to yourself, family, and co-workers because broadcasting it out to the world is not the most professional thing to do in your career? You wouldn't know the mission or the tech, just the fact there are unscheduled launches in the middle of the night organized by a different crew of people.

It would be almost impossible to have such a launch go unnoticed even in the middle of the night. ESPECIALLY in the middle of the night.

How does a spectroscopic analysis determine if a satellite is a spy satellite?

Well, a spectra can tell you a lot about what something is reflecting and/or made out of.... If you rule out the knowns, you're left with an unknown. Anyone can get a list of all the known satellites, who made them, what they are made out of, their reflective characteristics, etc and compare that to secret stuff.

Here is a page which has the orbital elements of classified satellites and stuff....

www.prismnet.com...

a reply to: JadeStar

String of questions, hope you don't feel like you're getting interviewed.

What is the story behind the satellite picture you posted?

Are there are only a handful of places in the world to launch things into space from? Are they all near populated cities or towns? Nothing in the desert? Can you launch anything into space from an aircraft carrier in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: tanka418

Tanka I was being very sarcastic with the comment about amateur astronomers. Do you record what you see through your telescope? Have you ever observed and recored one of our 100's of satellites or space junk?

Check this out....recorded with nothing but a small amateur sized telescope and video camera:

Cool...One of the lesser things I'd like to do is a video of ISS passing over Texas, maybe on a daily basis we possible...

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: tanka418

Tanka I was being very sarcastic with the comment about amateur astronomers. Do you record what you see through your telescope? Have you ever observed and recored one of our 100's of satellites or space junk?

Well...firstly...my telescope is still just a project. I have tons of work left to do on just the software to run the thing,

However...it will have a camera that is quite capable of producing video of anything it can see. It's resolution is about 0.6 arcseconds...what that means is that at 250,000 miles, I will be able to resolve something as small as1 mile or so (that is Moon distance)...close up...ISS will seem "large", and lesser satellites while considerable smaller will also be visible...depending on how far out the orbit is. ISS orbits at around 220 miles...at that range I should be able to see objects as small as say 1 meter or so.

Spy satellites as I understand can be as far out as 22000 mi...

Space junk should be, typically, too small to see at much of a distance.

I plan to stream video of events like ISS passing over, eclipses that I can "see", comets, asteroids, etc.

originally posted by: charlyv
I have a disturbing thought about the discovery of life in the universe, possibly in the near future.

So, the ultimate question is, can we really handle it? ... and this means all of us. What do you think?

Can we handle it? Most can, but some may not -and that's the problem. As a directive in the overabundance of caution, TPTB (aka, your 'committee') the decision to non-disclose will likely keep your Ceres metropolis under wraps. As long as no imminent threat or malicious intent is detected, there will be no reason to take the risk of disclosure. True, this seems terribly unfair to the vast majority of us that CAN handle the truth, indeed -deserve to share in it. Nevertheless, the risk outweighs the benefit, or so it will be concluded, and, as in similar instances of the past (some far more egregious), the official/unofficial international policy of "plausible denial will prevail. This is the way it is. Until and if 'they' choose to make themselves known to you, personally, it is unlikely that any such governments or their proxy 'committees' will choose to disclose anything to the public that might disrupt the status quo.

Case closed. (But it would make a great movie).

I'd just like to point out that it is possible to launch secret satellites into Space without 100's of people knowing:





Boeing-Built Fighter Jets Could Launch US Military Satellites Into Space

Link

The United States military's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) gave Boeing a $30.6 million contract last month to develop a 24-foot (7.3-meter) launch vehicle that would attach to the bottom of an F-15E Strike Eagle.

The concept calls for the jet to drop this vehicle when it reaches an altitude of 40,000 feet (12,192 meters), at which point the craft's rocket engines would kick on, carrying onboard satellites into orbit.

The fighter-jet system would not only be a cheaper approach than the usual throwaway rocket stages, officials added, but also would be a quicker way to send satellites into orbit. The United States military would not need to wait around for a launch vehicle to be available or a launch window to open.

DARPA also wants to reduce the cost of access to space for much bigger payloads. The agency's Experimental Spaceplane project, or XS-1, aims to develop a vehicle capable of launching 3,000- to 5,000-lb (1,361 to 2,268 kg) payloads to orbit for less than $5 million per flight.

So nothing is impossible, and there are simpler ways around involving 100's to 1000's of people in a cover up like Jade Star suggests is ridiculous and goes against the whole reason why Nasa would want more funding.

If you want something done, do it yourself. Also this is what they released to the public, don't you think they have something more high tech going on too that is classified?

originally posted by: charlyv
So, the ultimate question is, can we really handle it? ... and this means all of us. What do you think?

This is a question that requires an individual answer from everyone. Considering how religious people are doing, I am free of any dogmas including new age, so yes, I am more than able to handle the truth, in whatever state it comes - dimensions, souls, aliens whatever that is, as long as it is real and existing.

originally posted by: game over man
I'd just like to point out that it is possible to launch secret satellites into Space without 100's of people knowing:

Actually, the Air Force des this all the time, they even have their very own mini-shuttle / robotic space plane. But even then there are 100's of people that know quite a lot about the mission and asset...they just "military" types (even the civilians are mil types).

But once in space, they are available for anyone at all to inspect to the best of their ability.

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: JadeStar

String of questions, hope you don't feel like you're getting interviewed.

It's ok, I've been interviewed before, one of my first interviews was on ATS Out of the Box in Season 5.

What is the story behind the satellite picture you posted?

Basically that amateurs can take high quality footage of the International Space Station (and back then the Shuttle).

You can read more background on it and how you can do the same here and see it in a gallery of other such photos shot by amateurs here including the shootdown of a US spy satellite.

Are there are only a handful of places in the world to launch things into space from?

Yes. The places are well known and have to be listed for flight safety reasons. Here's another global list of spaceports.

Are they all near populated cities or towns?

No, but anything launched from them can be seen many thousands of miles away and that means someone will see it.

Nothing in the desert?

Again, see above. Launches can be seen many thousands of miles away in all directions especially at night.

Can you launch anything into space from an aircraft carrier in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?

Sure you could but that will be seen as well by other vessels, islands and perhaps even the mainland of several countries. It's just not possible to keep a launch a secret.

See also: X-37B photographed in space by amateur

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: game over man
I'd just like to point out that it is possible to launch secret satellites into Space without 100's of people knowing:

Actually, the Air Force des this all the time, they even have their very own mini-shuttle / robotic space plane. But even then there are 100's of people that know quite a lot about the mission and asset...they just "military" types (even the civilians are mil types).

But once in space, they are available for anyone at all to inspect to the best of their ability.

^^^ This...

Anyone who doubts this need only see the gallery of images I linked in the post above this one.

You may be able to launch something small from air launchers but once its in space its available for all to see.

a reply to: JadeStar

Wow I'm surprised you kept on arguing. Good information but you are incredibly stubborn if you think it's impossible for something secret to get launched into space. Why instead of arguing semantics, just say the human eye can see the Andromeda Galaxy and that is 2.6 million light years from Earth!!

I already know we can see the international space station, see the moon, etc...I've seen all the professional photography pictures you posted.

If no one wants to work as an online community to communicate in a way, well basically here is the conclusion, no secret space blah blah blah can be secretly launched into orbit, or out of orbit, or out anywhere in the solar system, because not that it CAN or COULD be identified, it's that it WILL be identified. Nothing gets away! So in that case, let's close the books and shut down the website.

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: JadeStar

Wow I'm surprised you kept on arguing. Good information but you are incredibly stubborn if you think it's impossible for something secret to get launched into space. Why instead of arguing semantics, just say the human eye can see the Andromeda Galaxy and that is 2.6 million light years from Earth!!

I already know we can see the international space station, see the moon, etc...I've seen all the professional photography pictures you posted.

If no one wants to work as an online community to communicate in a way, well basically here is the conclusion, no secret space blah blah blah can be secretly launched into orbit, or out of orbit, or out anywhere in the solar system, because not that it CAN or COULD be identified, it's that it WILL be identified. Nothing gets away! So in that case, let's close the books and shut down the website.

You asked questions and I answered them based on what I know about the capabilities of amateur space enthusiasts, satellite trackers, plane spotters, etc.

I understand you have a need to believe in a "secret space program" but many kids have a need to believe in the Easter Bunny.

However, if you really want to dig in, buy a telescope, a good DSLR camera, learn how to use both and start looking for stuff that is not accounted for. Who knows, you might make a discovery?

a reply to: JadeStar

This is where you have selective reading...I'm asking is it possible to have a secret space program, and you say it is not. I don't believe in it...I'm trying to research it. Thanks