Schizophrenia doesn't exist

That's the title of a Dutch website which I thought I'd discuss here. Unfortunately the site is in Dutch so it can only be viewed by using google translate but I'll try to post the gist of the message here. The site is made by health care professionals working with several patient groups and organizations so it's a legit site and it also names the scientific sources.

Basically the message of the site is to change the way people view schizophrenia. This is because of the dark and gloomy outlook schizophrenia sufferers get, they want to change the pessimistic views that go along with the diagnosis and the stigma's. The site specifically states it doesn't mean there are no people suffering from severe mental problems. The creators of the site hope to do away with the pessimistic expectations that go along with the diagnosis.

In Japan for example the diagnosis was found to be equivalent to an instruction to go kill yourself. Japan has a history of suicide where it's deemed necessary when a significant loss of social status occurs. They changed the diagnosis there and hopefully other countries will follow. But it will not change on it's own and that's why the creators made the website.

The website talks about personal recovery and medical recovery. Most people believe schizophrenia is a progressive disease of the brain, meaning it will only become worse and there's no recovery. People who have the diagnosis often become seen as having no more value to society, where they'll remain in wards and on welfare for the remainder of their life, not able to function anymore and build a 'normal' life. Patients often get told they shouldn't try to apply for a job anymore, forget about studying, forget about having a child. While in fact a majority does personally recover, that is they pick up their lives again and continue living, finding a way to deal with their weaknesses. So there might not be a medical recovery where the brain heals but people can learn how to live with it and continue with their life in society.

The site also tells about how patients are treated different because some countries use the DSM manual to diagnose while other countries use the ICD10 from the Worlds Health Organization, which has a broader, more optimistic and hopeful approach to schizophrenia and psychosis in general. In the newest version of DSM (5) it is specifically stated schizophrenia doesn't objectively exist because the criteria and definitions are constantly changing. It is meant as a term which health care workers can use to communicate with eachother.

Another reason why the term has become too pessimistic is because the academic psychiatrists who make the policy only see the worst cases. To them, it's difficult to understand there are sufferers who pick up their lives again because they don't see those patients. Instead they get to see the worst cases and often think that is how it will be like for all sufferers. This is known as the 'Berkson bias'.

The site also notes how there is no proof for a genetic cause; that is the genes found to be responsible are present in the majority of society so that would mean everyone has a chance to become mentally ill.

The last point I wanted to mention is how it's wrong to view schizophrenia as progressive. This is because the people who get the diagnosis are often told they won't get a job anymore, can't study, won't have a normal life. They spend their days doing menial things in wardens and this has an obvious effect on their brains. The mind needs to be trained or needs to have certain stimuli each day which those people don't get anymore once they've gone into 'the system'. In essence (my words) it's a self fulfilling prophecy, tell someone they won't have a normal life and if that person believes it they lose hope and the prophecy will come true.

Here's the site if anyone is interested, specifically the page about the site:
translate.google.com...

I have schizophrenia...


& in my experience...

The Drs, Consultants, & care workers have been nothing but optimistic...

They don't want me to spend time on the ward...

Tell me I'll find a job and that eventually I should have a normal life...





But none of that is the case in my world.

I can't find a job that I won't suffer in, I need the ward to readjust every now and then...
& my life is far from normal.



So it's a case by case thing imo.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

So it's a case by case thing imo.

Not just your opinion.
I concur.
No one is just like anyone else, schizophrenics included.
One size never fits all.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

So it's a case by case thing imo.

Not just your opinion.
I concur.
No one is just like anyone else, schizophrenics included.
One size never fits all.

Yeah true.

& again, in my experience, it's hard to relate to another schizophrenic because there is a few subtypes and different veracity/frequency of voices and "hallucinations".

Again making life difficult. Far from normal so to speak.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Yesterday I mentioned I have been in a 28 year old relationship. It is with a gal who is (clinically diagnosed) schizophrenic.
The three woman I now have are a challenge on a daily basis. Her name is Cindi. But the other two have other names, of which I have never given them one, as I felt it would only keep adding fuel to the mentalities of them. SO I have been on a roller coaster ride for years because of this. Only one of the other personalities is negative, the other two are positive. One is very childlike, the other adult and proper. The bad gal is downright evil. So it has been a definite challenge for Me here.

I say all this to add to the discussion here that Schitso's can relate in society in decent ways, usually. The bad times can be overlooked because of this.

Pat on the back Charlie. You are doing fine! I am better for having known You here and reading your thoughtful replies to other threads. They have been inspiring to Me!!

Good Job on all that Bro!! Take it easy, Syx.

a reply to: SyxPak

Wow more strength to you Syx, pal.

It's hard being schizo, but caring for someone who has an illness is a testiment to your honour & valour.
Because it is just as difficult on loved ones as it can on the "sufferer"...

Hope you have a great day buddy, stay positive!

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Thanx Bro! I will stay positive. I have to here.
Hope your day goes well too Man!

Later for Now, Syx.

I have always wondered what is the link between our schizophrenic society and this illness. Our daily lives are so far removed from reality and with that I mean, we do not lead natural lives. We do not follow the rhythm of nature and have perverted most human values and made people look naive if they uphold honesty, integrity, honor and compassion. We have abandoned personal shamanistic tribal healing for religious institutionalism. That is enough to drive a sensitive sane person nuts or shatter his reality / mind.

In my understanding schizophrenia is quite rare among tribal societies if they do not have contact with western 'civilization'... And there is also the fact that hardly any solid genetic evidence suggests that the illness is hereditary.

What do you others think about this? I'm just curious...

a reply to: TatTvamAsi

Depending on veracity and message of the voices...

Most cultures would contest that a schizophrenic is really just a Magi/Shaman/Telepathic or to the more extreme a demon/djinn/possessed.



There is an in between...

Which is brain wiring gone wrong...
I think that's where I am mostly.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Well, what caused the brain wiring go wrong in the first place? Doesn't it develop on a feedback loop with real life experiences? I guess the shamanistic healing was used to correct stuff that went awry, to see new horizons in ones plight, so to say. You could have probably ended up as an apprentice to a shaman in some cases as well.

I guess some maladies can cause it to go wrong as well, but in the majority of cases?

In the UK where care in the community abounds, there has since the 90's when mental health hospitals closed, increased diagnoses of 'personality disorder' than calling it schizophrenia.

Having worked in mental health, I watched countless diagnoses and CPN led medicating turning residents to effective zombies suffering a plethora of other complaints.

The mental health system needs reviewing in the UK.

originally posted by: TatTvamAsi
I have always wondered what is the link between our schizophrenic society and this illness. Our daily lives are so far removed from reality and with that I mean, we do not lead natural lives. We do not follow the rhythm of nature and have perverted most human values and made people look naive if they uphold honesty, integrity, honor and compassion. We have abandoned personal shamanistic tribal healing for religious institutionalism. That is enough to drive a sensitive sane person nuts or shatter his reality / mind.

In my understanding schizophrenia is quite rare among tribal societies if they do not have contact with western 'civilization'... And there is also the fact that hardly any solid genetic evidence suggests that the illness is hereditary.

What do you others think about this? I'm just curious...

I think, no time to look it up and link it, too much to do today.

But I think, that people who "saw visions" and to whom the "spirits spoke" were seen as special people who had contact with the spirit world. It could be that because they were treated with awe by the tribe that they were better grounded than today's person who is shunned and feared.

To have a job, to be an accepted member of society, a person in today's society must hide their mental illness even if they are quite stable and have been for a long time on medication. The fear of being "found out" is so great that it creates it's own problems and internal conflicts.

Charlie you are so brave to openly talk about it, this is not the first time you have done so on ATS. I admire your willingness not to hide and to be who you really are.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Charlie you are so brave to openly talk about it, this is not the first time you have done so on ATS. I admire your willingness not to hide and to be who you really are.

Yes, you are absolutely right on that assessment. It is not easy to come to terms with ones shortcomings and takes great courage.

originally posted by: TatTvamAsi
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Well, what caused the brain wiring go wrong in the first place? Doesn't it develop on a feedback loop with real life experiences? I guess the shamanistic healing was used to correct stuff that went awry, to see new horizons in ones plight, so to say. You could have probably ended up as an apprentice to a shaman in some cases as well.

I guess some maladies can cause it to go wrong as well, but in the majority of cases?

Well the majority of causes seems to be divided between genetic predisposition & traumatic experiences...


My voices started when I was 4...
Just after I had an NDE after choking on a grape...

So correlation says trauma caused mine...
But I cannot guaruntee it's the cause, just that the timing seemed to fit with the trauma.


& the above could also explain a brain wiring deficiency, due to a lack of oxygen for a couple of minutes.

Much more research is needed though.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
In the UK where care in the community abounds, there has since the 90's when mental health hospitals closed, increased diagnoses of 'personality disorder' than calling it schizophrenia.

Having worked in mental health, I watched countless diagnoses and CPN led medicating turning residents to effective zombies suffering a plethora of other complaints.

The mental health system needs reviewing in the UK.

So true.

I've seen a myriad of people turn into "zombies" due to medication.

Nearly happened to me with Olanzipine... That's one dangerous drug imo.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Thanks grandma...

The stigma attached doesn't really affect me as I've been dealing with these voices and visions for 23 years.

It's much easier to talk about...


But I hadn't done so publically prior to 2011.
I kept it in creative writing.


Now, it is what it is I guess, after a while it became much easier to deal with & manage if I spoke about it.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Yeah it is getting the drug right and the dosage and it is a hard thing to do. A lot of trial and error.
I have seen Olanzipine do wonders and I have seen it make people worse.
One day and I think soon we will have personal tablets, made for our own biology actually working because it is designed for you from a simple dna test, I have read about it somewhere.
I'm just glad you good folk can open up and talk about it because it isn't just med's that help. many therapy's help and just talking about it and learning about it does help.
Blimey 1 in 3 will suffer some form of mental unwellness in their life as bad as cancer and just as life effecting but the funding isn't there.
It is getting better but we all gotta fight for more understanding and the death of the stigma that is still associated with being mental illness.
Good on you all.

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

I have noticed this in Learning disabilities.
PD is being used on two of my SU's and having worked in mental health wards I truly think they are both suffering from schizophrenia.

a reply to: johnnyjoe1979

Also when I worked in wards I never heard anyone say to any of the patients that they would never get a job and such....society did that by looking at their CV's when out and because it is law that you have to notify an employer If you have been sectioned the employer takes one look and thinks "loon" and even If you are the best for the job they will hire someone else.
We gotta just get rid of the stigma.
Anyhow in my experience at the places I worked at we kept everyone active mentally/physically and no we talked about the future of their lives in a positive manner helping them make goals for them to achieve.

a reply to: boymonkey74

Yeah I won't say Olanzipine didn't start off well...

But I could feel myself becoming more switched off than I already was...
Very lethargic...


I enjoyed the lack of anger and increased appetite...

But the cons outweighed the pros, for me at least.



That's also a great idea, DNA testing for the best possible personal meds...
We must be nearly there.



Thanks for the kind words too, my friend...

& kudos to you too...
I don't think there is a more taken for granted workforce than carers of those with mental ailments.

A real warriors job.
Have a great day.