Vladimir Putin' s Not-So-Secret War On Europe

The west wants a IMF/FED follower like Yeltsin again since Putin:s corrupt oligarchy is in the way for the western banking mafia corruption.

So the Russian have a choice by being stolen from Putin or the banking cartel of the west.

a reply to: DJW001

Wow ..mods moved in quick ..maybe that a good thing but most would not have seen what was being said ...too bad in a way . Ok back to the topic .OP you say

I am not claiming that the existence of Vlaams Belang means that Belgium is over-run by Nazis, I am merely pointing out that Vladimir Putin has been cultivating ties with radical groups in an attempt to destabilize the EU.

I could point out the Wests hypocrisy in the ME as being very similar and they may be the same type of tactic . You know the enemy of my enemy but I don't think Putin wants a destabilized EU on his border any more then he wanted Ukraine to be destabilized and on his border .

I think that the west's actions in Ukraine are causing a shaking up of a fragile EU . We are hearing more about the sanctions and how it's going to hurt the economy more in EU then in Russia . Russia wanted to do more business ,..buy ships from France , build new pipelines , EU or some in the EU would have benefited from the Gas supplies but because of what is happening in Ukraine and EU being told by Washington to tow the line the people are not liking it .These right wing left wing parties are only providing a voice by the people that don't want to go with the status qou . Would Putin play that card ? I would think him not very smart if he didn't .

The latest cries about building a EU army must be giving the people night mares .I thought NATO was the protectorate of EU .You cant have war if you dont have a standing army and having a standing army only makes you a target for any invading one .Putins Red line is very clear and unless it's respected ,expect problems .

a reply to: Strawberry88

He hasn't and I JUST proved to you that you're wrong because these groups have ZERO influence here. So what if there are "ties"?? They're worthless and what's worse is the current powerhouses in the west are ALL connected. So what is it you are implying, politics happen???

It doesn't matter how much influence any single group has in any given European state; it is the cumulative effect of doubt and " Euroskepticism" that matters. Every whisper and murmur contributes to dissatisfaction. It is precisely this sort of rumor mongering that Putin has accused the " the West" of doing in Ukraine.

Furthermore, by having puppet groups based in various European states, Putin can put together " international committees" to " investigate" or " witness" activities that he himself controls. This permits his propagandists to proclaim that the " referendum" in Crimea " met with international standards, according to an impartial group of international observers." For example:

The region of Crimea has decided on a referendum to join the Russian Federation in a vote that was branded illegitimate and undemocratic by the West – even before it took place. But not everybody in Europe agrees and today Sophie talks to somebody who witnessed the Crimean vote firsthand – Austrian MEP Ewald Stadler, an observer on the referendum.

rt.com...

It must be true! He is an impartial Western observer, right?



Oops.

I live in Europe and I don't support a EU where the individual member states have no say in things, which is exactly where things are going. I support every political party that realises this before it is too late

Every political party?

And YOU DJ are actually trying to smear every party that is involved in damage control of what the EU is doing, with "PUTIN WAS HERE" propaganda.

No, I am trying to warn you that your good intentions are being exploited by Russian propaganda. Putin wants to make Russia great by making your homeland small. There is strength in unity. Putin knows this.

a reply to: DJW001

Fine, then we disagree.

WE NEED EUROSKEPTICISM before it is too late, but I'm pretty sure you're not in the EU and talking from that position is easy. You only hear what they want you to hear.


I don't need your GD help because you don't understand the simple fact that the majority of europeans (that I know) support the EU to the extent where they see no harm in a complete take-over


You're going to teach me to be quiet and accept what the West has in stores for me, because otherwise boogeyman putin is going to come here?


Ridiculous! You want to know how the EU is suffering? DUE TO THE WEST'S OWN ACTIONS.



But NO, thank god you are here to help me turn a blind eye! We could all root for world war 3 instead of trying to limit ALL powerhouses, sure, why not



For being on ATS it doesn't stop amazing me how many people actually appear to be playing "tptb"'s game.

a reply to: DJW001


Oh and in case you did not know, "dissatisfaction" doesn't come from outside sources or from political parties grouping up, it comes from the people actually BEING dissatisfied with the choices their leaders make



Just a question, because I caught you in some serious self-contradicting there;


What's the difference with the West funding Ukraine's separatist movement????

Did dissatisfaction come to Ukraine because the West was involved?


Nope, in this case surely you'll argue "the people were sick of it!!"

So, really then, what's your agenda when you don't want something similar to be able to happen in Europe? If people are dissatisfied they deserve change, but apparently not the EU because Putin could be involved???


Great contradiction, and just goes to show the bias really... Whatever the west does is righteous, the rest is evil. I wish I could walk around with blinders like that.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I could point out the Wests hypocrisy in the ME as being very similar and they may be the same type of tactic . You know the enemy of my enemy but I don't think Putin wants a destabilized EU on his border any more then he wanted Ukraine to be destabilized and on his border .

Putin profited from Ukraine's destabilization. He has taken advantage of it to annex Crimea and is hoping to acquire everything east of the Dnieper. Should Ukraine cede Donbass, the political situation in Ukraine will immediately stabilize. You're right, Putin doesn't want an unstable Ukraine on his border, he wants a smaller, weaker more compliant Ukraine on his border.

Similarly, he does not want an unstable EU on his border, he wants a collection of smaller, weaker, more easily intimidated but stable nations on his border. It will be easier for him to play France, Germany, Britain and Poland off of each other once the EU is gone.

I think that the west's actions in Ukraine are causing a shaking up of a fragile EU . We are hearing more about the sanctions and how it's going to hurt the economy more in EU then in Russia .

Thanks for reminding me:



www.tradingeconomics.com...

Russia wanted to do more business ,..buy ships from France , build new pipelines , EU or some in the EU would have benefited from the Gas supplies but because of what is happening in Ukraine and EU being told by Washington to tow the line the people are not liking it .

Putin should have thought about that before he invaded. Did he really think Europe would continue with business as usual?

These right wing left wing parties are only providing a voice by the people that don't want to go with the status qou . Would Putin play that card ? I would think him not very smart if he didn't .

So you admit that Putin is interfering with the internal affairs of other sovereign nations by manipulating extremist parties there? You've seen the light. BTW, that's illegal.

The latest cries about building a EU army must be giving the people night mares .I thought NATO was the protectorate of EU .

That's the problem: NATO does not have an army. NATO is a committee that co-ordinates the armed forces of its member nations. Europe has skimped and saved by under-funding its military, assuming the United States had its back. The US is spent.

You cant have war if you dont have a standing army and having a standing army only makes you a target for any invading one .

Very clear sighted of you. Russia has a much larger army than any single European state. Are you beginning to understand why he wants to bust up NATO and the EU?

Putins Red line is very clear and unless it's respected ,expect problems .

Please explain: what is his " red line?"

a reply to: Strawberry88

Oh and in case you did not know, "dissatisfaction" doesn't come from outside sources or from political parties grouping up, it comes from the people actually BEING dissatisfied with the choices their leaders make

Not according to Vladimir Putin. Did you actually read the first post? Vladimir Putin has projected his own scheme to destabilize the EU onto " the West." Putin believes that it was NGOs covertly manipulating public opinion that led to dissatisfaction and unrest in Ukraine. He hopes to duplicate that perceived success in the EU.

I agree, dissatisfaction comes from within; Putin's schizophrenic fostering of extremists at both ends of the political spectrum will not succeed.

originally posted by: DJW001

Similarly, he does not want an unstable EU on his border, he wants a collection of smaller, weaker, more easily intimidated but stable nations on his border. It will be easier for him to play France, Germany, Britain and Poland off of each other once the EU is gone.

So you are really really really going to argue that after Ukraine, Putin will go Adolf on us and take over nation by nation while the west watches?

Why would I believe you? Because Putin took action when the West tried to grab Russia's neighbour?

I'm sure you'll agree, but that's a lot of speculation



What if I were convinced the West has the exact same plans for Europe except they want ONE easily controlled "nation"? You working to prevent that too, or are you fine with a EU dictatorship perhaps? (sorry, you can exaggerate the actions of the bear thus so can I!)




I won't give up my right to vote so Putin can make law here, but I equally won't give up my vote so a bunch of non-elected euro-ficials can decide what's "best for me"


You want me to support the latter? Good luck with that? I just hope you're opposed to both results, but I fear, seeing as you don't live in the EU, you actually think it would be a great idea for the EU to merge.


A nightmare and nothing more is what it'll be, unless you're one to welcome some kind of NWO of course

a reply to: Strawberry88

So you are really really really going to argue that after Ukraine, Putin will go Adolf on us and take over nation by nation while the west watches?

Putin is on record as having said that " the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geo-political disaster of the twentieth century." His speeches are full references to Russia's greatness and its special place in the world. I do not believe he intends to conquer all of Europe; he only wants the Soviet Union back under unambiguous Russian control. Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Latvia and Lithuania are the only European countries that need to worry. He has already taken a bite out of most of them. Central Asia is where the most blood will flow.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Strawberry88

Oh and in case you did not know, "dissatisfaction" doesn't come from outside sources or from political parties grouping up, it comes from the people actually BEING dissatisfied with the choices their leaders make

Not according to Vladimir Putin. Did you actually read the first post? Vladimir Putin has projected his own scheme to destabilize the EU onto " the West." Putin believes that it was NGOs covertly manipulating public opinion that led to dissatisfaction and unrest in Ukraine. He hopes to duplicate that perceived success in the EU.

I agree, dissatisfaction comes from within; Putin's schizophrenic fostering of extremists at both ends of the political spectrum will not succeed.

My point was: The west does the same but in that case it's not enough reason for you to blame them of being involved in said dissatisfaction

But when dissatisfaction occurs in the West you are quick to point to putin, even BEFORE it's happened, funny


I am pretty sure the EU will see troubled times, and I'm equally sure the entire blame for it will fall on putin


WHICH IS OUTRAGEOUS and you're paving the way for this kind of reasoning



People in europe are fed up not with Russia or the US but with THEIR OWN LEADERS, YOU are helping them put the blame elsewhere


WHEN THE EUROCRISIS HAPPENED THERE WAS ZERO TALK OF PUTIN


THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ARE EUROSCEPTIC, IF they are that is


And as being one, I almost find it offensive that I have to explain to some American that THAT is why I'm "dissatisfied", not because GD putin's representative had a chat with some eurosceptic politician





And if I need to know that putin is plotting a take-over, then show me the evidence. Otherwise this is nothing but propaganda from you to me.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Strawberry88

So you are really really really going to argue that after Ukraine, Putin will go Adolf on us and take over nation by nation while the west watches?

Putin is on record as having said that " the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geo-political disaster of the twentieth century." His speeches are full references to Russia's greatness and its special place in the world. I do not believe he intends to conquer all of Europe; he only wants the Soviet Union back under unambiguous Russian control. Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Latvia and Lithuania are the only European countries that need to worry. He has already taken a bite out of most of them. Central Asia is where the most blood will flow.

So what is he doing in greece, france, belgium,... all according to your own OP?


Nope, I think you're just trying to smear every eurosceptic movement as a ploy by putin

a reply to: Strawberry88

So what is he doing in greece, france, belgium,... all according to your own OP?

As I have already explained, he is trying to destroy European unity so that the world's largest economy will become many smaller economies. This means Russia rises from Fourth Place to Third Place without actually having to develop. It also gives him the ability to play the now disunited nations off of one another, rather than being forced to deal with them as a bloc.

Nope, I think you're just trying to smear every eurosceptic movement as a ploy by putin

Exactly the opposite: Putin is trying to turn every legitimate Euroskeptic movement to his own advantage.

a reply to: DJW001

Furthermore, by having puppet groups based in various European states, Putin can put together " international committees" to " investigate" or " witness" activities that he himself controls. This permits his propagandists to proclaim that the " referendum" in Crimea " met with international standards, according to an impartial group of international observers." For example:

Yes very convenient for Putin eh ..Oh wait Maybe the west is seeing someone using the same tactics ..live and learn

a reply to: Strawberry88

My point was: The west does the same but in that case it's not enough reason for you to blame them of being involved in said dissatisfaction

The West does not do the same thing; Putin says it does to justify his own doing it.

But when dissatisfaction occurs in the West you are quick to point to putin, even BEFORE it's happened, funny

I am not blaming the dissatisfaction on Putin, I am saying that he is trying to take advantage of it.

I am pretty sure the EU will see troubled times, and I'm equally sure the entire blame for it will fall on putin

When has anyone ever blamed Putin for the global economic crisis?

WHICH IS OUTRAGEOUS and you're paving the way for this kind of reasoning

Yes, it would be outrageous if anyone ever actually did that.

People in europe are fed up not with Russia or the US but with THEIR OWN LEADERS, YOU are helping them put the blame elsewhere

No, I am most certainly not. All I am saying is that Putin is taking advantage of people being dissatisfied with their leaders. How many times do I need to repeat that?

WHEN THE EUROCRISIS HAPPENED THERE WAS ZERO TALK OF PUTIN

Correct; so why are you acting as though there were?

THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ARE EUROSCEPTIC, IF they are that is

This is not about why people are skeptical about the EU; it is about how Putin is trying to turn this dissatisfaction to his benefit.

And as being one, I almost find it offensive that I have to explain to some American that THAT is why I'm "dissatisfied", not because GD putin's representative had a chat with some eurosceptic politician

You do not have to explain why you are a skeptic to anyone. I'm just pointing out that you are making Putin happy. Incidentally, you will notice that all of the claims of "Western interference" in Ukraine are based on American or European officials supposedly meeting with Ukrainian politicians. Why is it okay for Russians to meet with European politicians, but bad for Americans to meet with Ukrainian politicians?

And if I need to know that putin is plotting a take-over, then show me the evidence. Otherwise this is nothing but propaganda from you to me.

I did not say "Putin is plotting a take-over." He is simply, in his eyes, trying to "level the playing field." Are you sure you've read the OP? It's full of evidence.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

The whole point to the thread is that Putin is using the same tactics he claims the West is using.

a reply to: DJW001

His red line is NATO expansion getting too close to Russia's border .I don't know if you know about Gladio . Are you aware of US secret cells and covert operations by the US ? I don't mean on their borders but around the world ? Are you aware of the many many military bases around the world the US has ? Do you think they may have secret bases as well ?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: DJW001

His red line is NATO expansion getting too close to Russia's border .I don't know if you know about Gladio . Are you aware of US secret cells and covert operations by the US ? I don't mean on their borders but around the world ? Are you aware of the many many military bases around the world the US has ? Do you think they may have secret bases as well ?

Yes; all of "Gladio's" stay behind cells were on NATO soil, not Russian. And, yes, of course I think Russia has secret bases. All of that is irrelevant to the thread.

a reply to: DJW001

So the only point to this thread is to look at the Putin bad ,rest of the world good ? Do you not think that there is a bigger game called geo-politics where the world is a chess board with many pieces and different powers playing to win ? If that is the case then we can expect to see strategic moves both defensively and offensively . Grab the tool box and use the tool necessary to get the job done . Propaganda being one of them .They all use it and some times they loose it . Hillary and John Kerry basically agree that they are loosing their propaganda war .

The rabid arguing about Putin trying to reduce the EU's negotiating power by supporting splinter parties in various countries is pretty silly to me. It's proven that Russia is providing money to many of these parties. All he needs is one success and he can block many EU decisions that require unanimity. With a few EU governments sympathetic to Russia he can limit EU Energy policies designed to stop his control of Gas flow to Europe.

The OP's point is as clear as day. He isn't arguing a Russian invasion of Europe. He's showing clear 'political meddling'. It's up to EU countries to limit foreign financing of political parties.

a reply to: DJW001

Carl Jung described a psychological phenomenon he called " projection." It is the tendency for people to believe that others are thinking or feeling the same thing they are. People can project their own intentions on to others; we have all experienced this.

No. Putin's fears that NATO is attempting to destabilize Russia is nothing other than psychological projection.

Would it help if he maybe went to see a psychologist? Therapy maybe? I mean it is clear that he makes all his decisions based on said projections. His advisors and intelligence agencies have been telling him there is no such thing going on at all but he will not listen and keeps focussing on his projections.

Besides, NATO would never do such a thing. It is clear that if there ever was one entity doing such things it is Russia.

The idea that both sides are trying to do this is prepostrous.