Gay - Not a choice but not born that way.

There's lots of threads on here recently about being gay. Is it a choice? Are we born that way?

Here's some information to suggest it is not a choice but we are not born that way.

I believe we are either born with no sexual preference or the innate preference for the opposite sex. I am leaning towards the first option.

I believe the relationships we have with father/mother figures in our lives has profound effect on our personality. And our sexuality.

For decades, psychologists and other researchers assumed that the mother-child bond was the most important one in a kid's life. They focused on studying those relationships, and however a child turned out, mom often got the credit — or blame.

Within the last several decades, though, scientists are increasingly realizing just how much dads matter. Just like women, fathers' bodies respond to parenthood, and their parenting style affects their kids just as much, and sometimes more, than mom's.

"We're now finding that not only are fathers influential, sometimes they have more influence on kids' development than moms," said Ronald Rohner, the director of the Center for the Study of Interpersonal Acceptance and Rejection at the University of Connecticut.

Source

Some of this data is old but still relevant. I understand those of you who are perturbed by the thread will not accept the data due to age, that is cool.

Bieber, et al., found a pattern of detached and/or hostile-detached fathers. They concluded that: "Profound interpersonal disturbance is unremitting in the homosexual father-son relationship. Not one of the fathers (of homosexual sons)... could be regarded as reasonably 'normal' parents'."(Bieber 1962, p.114)

From Bieber, I. et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. New York: Basic Books

In part to test the Bieber conclusions, Apperson and McAdoo compared 23 non-patient homosexuals and 22 members of the US army. Their conclusion:

The results of this study strongly support the theoretical formations of Bieber et al., in considering homosexuality as primarily related to specific experiential factors. The importance of the relationship -- or lack of it --with the father is again emphasized with the homosexual S[ubject]s showing marked difference from the controls in perceiving the father more as critical, impatient, and rejecting, and less as the socializing agent. (Apperson, 1968)

From Apperson, L., McAdoo, W. (1968) Parental Factors in the Childhood of Homosexuals. Journal of Abnormal Psychology. 73,3: 201-206.

Here is a link to the studies and more modern studies and more information

What I'm say, from an unemotional point of view is that it is incredibly interesting that our sexuality is thought of as something we are born with and cannot change, yet here are studies which suggest different.

From the point of view of a psychologist that is very interesting.

As the research suggests homosexuality can be attributed through these studies to a breakdown in the father son relationship. This has further implications. For example on same sex parenting - with lack of access to a male father figure would there be significant effects on the upbringing of the child?

I was brought up in a purely female household. I am regularly told by my Mrs that I am very in touch with my feelings and can read other's feelings well, a bit sexist but this is certainly a feminine trait. Those with less emotional intelligence often say I am reasonably camp. So I genuinely believe I was effected by the lack of a father son relationship. I have a dad but the relationship is very weak.

This leads on to the very controversial subject of conversion therapy. The idea that if one's sexuality can be a product of upbringing then perhaps it can be reversed. My personal opinion on this is that the human psyche cannot be reversed on such massive issues as sexuality. However the theory behind the conversion therapy is reasonably sound. Repeat: I do not believe it is safe for the human psyche.

It's a tough topic and I don't want to hurt anyone but I believe the father-son relationship has a huge impact on sexuality in later life. Have a read of the studies and see what you think.

a reply to: and14263

Not gay, but a masochist and born that way. I know so, because before anything bad ever happened and i even knew what sex is i had according phantasies. No daddy issues, because my pappily is kind of the same as me. My mom is a super bitch and terrorised the whole family, but i am not into women. And i tend to try and dominate all the poor females encountering me, psychologically.
Life did it's thing to strenghten that, but still, I am the most arrogant asshole the world has ever seen and I need that. I guess the same goes for all sexuell preferences.

a reply to: Peeple

Maybe the Freudian explanation for your domination of women is the poor relationship you have with your mum?

a reply to: and14263

Maybe the Freudian explanation for your domination of women is the poor relationship you have with your mum?

You got masochism wrong.

Oh, the other part.

a reply to: Domo1

What do you mean?

And i tend to try and dominate all the poor females encountering me, psychologically.

Double post

a reply to: and14263

What do you mean?

That was my bad. I think the poster doesn't know what a masochist is. Appears to be a sadist.

I was editing while you were posting!

a reply to: and14263

Of course it is. But still I am not gay. So you can't blame your preferences simply all and alone on the parent child relationships. I am a girl by the way. Could have read that into it, if you weren't just assuming everybody but you is stupid

a reply to: and14263

I found that my boys gravitated towards boy things , toy trucks loaders etc without being pushed in that direction . My daughter moved towards dolls etc in the same way . Perhaps this was because my boys identified themselves with me and followed my lead so to say in a love of cars . One would think though that at age 3 or lower they would still be trying to work out he/she .my guess is we are pre programmed , just in some cases the code is mixed up .

a reply to: Peeple
Relax, I don't assume everyone is stupid and I assumed you were female from your avatar.

in my immense and beautiful ignorance i have always been torn on this whole born gay/become gay thing
My core belief is simple: your body, your rules. i have no reason to worry about it because it has no impact on me.
do whatever or whoever you want.
but if i have to have an opinion, then eh, born that way?
the problem is i have never met or heard of a gay person that didn't have a really hard time growing up, from broken homes to abusive mothers to an uncle that was a bit too touchy-feely.
a long time ago i worked at a gay pub, met a bunch of nice people, but all the ones i got to know well all had some kind of troubled past.
Bu i mean, so what if you become gay? so what if you are not born that way?
people develop all sorts of sexual preferences as they grow up, people are into all sorts of different things, who cares is homosexuality is just another thing you get into, if it works for you, then it's all good i guess.
as long as it takes place between consenting adults i don't see a reason to define it or worry about it.

a reply to: and14263

Was more @domo1 sorry.

a reply to: and14263

That is very interesting, thanks for sharing. I tend to believe that homosexuality in males, and females, is a mixed bag of genetics (in very specific cases, such as the lisping, effeminate fashion-loving gay male, to the short-haired, masculine lesbian) - but also for many others it is definitely psychological. Maybe it's almost a 50/50 type of thing.

The mother/son connection can still also be quite a strong one for gay dudes - mama's boys, right? Especially if there are deeply-rooted issues relating to physical health problems in the mother at a very early age that disrupt the "first four years" of the boy's development. There can be unintentional psychological 'anchors' that could create a variety of different hang-ups or fixations in the boy's emotional upbringing - and also to his libido or chakra energy in the developing body. Freudian type issues also pertain to all of this, and how energetic anchoring during the early stages of bodily development, such as the oral and anal stages of potty training, for example, can also explain a variety of sexual quirks and behaviors. Why do some gay dudes have a strong anal kink while others a strong oral one?

Etc and so on LOL

So pardon all the other posts.

OP I think that people are actually born gay or straight (or in a certain spot on the spectrum). There are a lot of people that were adopted as babies by gay couples that turn out straight. Think about all the men running around who were raised by a single mother.

There are tons of stories about people that are gay in adulthood that grew up the typical manly way, with a father, playing football, hunting etc.

There are a ton of stories about people that are gay that knew they were when they were young, but didn't want to upset their parents. Father figure included.

There are a ton of stories about people who are gay that had a very loving home, a Mother and a Father deeply in love, and they are gay and accepted.

It is not argued that there are influential/ developmental factors of ''gayness'' but there might also be a percentage affected by genetic predisposition but also that of hormonal influence on the brain and brain functionality itself.

There might also be a conspiracy there. Sometimes it appeared that it was almost if those people were deliberately manipulated into becoming gay, in that their development was put on a path, not consciously by their mothers, in fact it seemed inspite of their mothers. Almost as if a controlling factor of society was doing a factory style selection process and they were pushed down the ''gay'' processing. I would not be surprised if there was such a group forcing such things.

I worked in catering management for years and met a lot of gay people, all had psychologically difficult childhoods or some emotional upheaval/ father issues, some were physically more like the other sex than average.

I know a few straight men that are jealous of women and want to look like them, there is an aspect to them that craves femininity despite not being inherently feminine.

The human brain is influenced by many factors and behaviour is the result of many interactions, of cognitive processes and developmental influences.

isites.harvard.edu...

Caveats notwithstanding, there is a loose consensus among geneticists, if not social scientists (Butler 1990; Kitzinger 1995), that there is some evidence for a genetic predisposition to homosexuality (Kallmann 1952; Bailey et al. 1993; Risch et al. 1993; Ferveur et al. 1995; Hamer 1999; Rice et al. 1999a). There certainly is no single “gay gene”; the relative weak values for the heritability of sexuality clearly illustrate that if sexuality is indeed genetic, it depends on at least several genes and that these genes are not deterministic. Additionally, the low values for heritability imply the importance of societal factors and socialization that are often ignored in much of the scientific literature.

Although many researchers claim that sexuality has a genetic basis, others have argued that prenatal hormones and brain development play a more crucial role. Differences in brain morphology and function between men are women are thought to arise prenatally. Research has shown that homosexuality in males correlates weakly to birth order; men with several older brothers are more likely to be gay, implicating that different hormonal environments in the womb may lead to different sexualities in adults (Bogaert 2006). Morphological differences were also seen between the brains of straight and gay men upon autopsy (Swaab and Hofman 1990). More recently, studies on adult men and women have shown that gay men have brain responses more like straight females and lesbian women have brain responses similar to those of straight men (Savic and Lindström 2008). These authors point to a biological basis for sexuality rooted not necessarily in genetics but rather in brain functionality, as programmed by responses to maternal hormones during early development.

a reply to: Domo1

So true. It's sad people are talking about homosexuality as if it's some type of psychological disorder.

I wish I could be gay. It would make some things easier.
It's just that I have this predisposition towards liking boobies and pretty faces.
I can't help it.
I'm not proud, but I'm not ashamed.
The way I see it, the more gay men, the better. More women for me.

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Domo1

So true. It's sad people are talking about homosexuality as if it's some type of psychological disorder.

You are saying it is being treated as a disorder but I have presented it as an effect. Those who offer conversion therapy might suggest it is a disorder, as stated I think this approach is damaging. So I must assume you are referring to those who offer therapy when you say people treat it as a disorder.

Effect, not disorder. I really don't think it is a negative effect.

a reply to: Peeple

The top/bottom (dominant/submissive) part of sexuality is always quite interesting to me. That is definitely a combination of born-with and acquired, I think. I guess females tend to be mostly submissive and males seem to be mostly dominant, but not necessarily always sadomasochist, but I think most men have secret fantasies of being in control of women (or men too sometimes, depending on how backed up they are at the time). I think most people hold back on their urges, but some are sexually liberated (and possibly rebellious).

I am slightly androgynous and definitely a sensitive homosexual type - more bottom than top, but versatile. For gay people, and straight for that matter, there is usually these separate sexual types that can match up. The more feminine bottom who wants a more masculine top. It seems to work out. There are probably even lots of abused females out there that have a kink for being dominated and/or punished. They almost always have 'daddy issues', whereas maybe the sadomasochists have '(I hate) mommy issues'.

a reply to: corsair00

My childhood wasn't nice, no details required, but I detest any sort of domination /punishment / sadomasochism etc.

An ex boyfriend of mine tried it once, pulling my hair, he wasn't a boyfriend after than and was lucky I didn't castrate him there and then.

I tend to think certain types of behaviour are a corruptness of mind, rather than developmental.

There are probably even lots of abused females out there that have a kink for being dominated and/or punished. They almost always have 'daddy issues', whereas maybe the sadomasochists have '(I hate) mommy issues'.