Contracting Measles and passing it to others after the vaccine. A new case of interest.

originally posted by: Pardon?
They have been proven

I hear this all the time, but have yet to ever see anyone provide anything of substance, beyond baseless claims, or demonstrably false and/or fabricated 'data' or 'studies' that have been 'doctored'.

albeit most haven't gone through the gold standard testing due to the fact that it would be extremely unethical to do so.

As I said earlier, this is demonstrably laughable. In order for this to be true, their efficacy and safety would have to be as obvious as SkepticScot's ridiculous car seat analogy. It is impossible for anything that involves biological processes to ever be this 'obvious'.

So, would you like to re-think your argument?

Not sure why you would ask that, since nothing you provided certainly qualifies as even remotely approaching evidence that would sway a rational person.

a reply to: tanstaafl
You equate mandatory as being at gun point? What a strange life you must lead. There are many things in life that are mandatory yet I seem to have managed to avoid having a gun pointed at me.
The data supporting the effectiveness of vaccines is overwhelming. If you choose to ignore this that is you own choice obviously but please don't pretend your position is based on facts.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

Just to add to the pile:www.westonaprice.org...

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: tanstaafl
You equate mandatory as being at gun point? What a strange life you must lead. There are many things in life that are mandatory yet I seem to have managed to avoid having a gun pointed at me.
The data supporting the effectiveness of vaccines is overwhelming. If you choose to ignore this that is you own choice obviously but please don't pretend your position is based on facts.

No one is ignoring the research that shows vaccine effectiveness, it's that we can't see it, because there is none. However, on this thread and all others like it you will find a plethora of studies and conclusions including lab results and on the ground observations such as in Corpus Christie.

Give us the data that shows efficacy and safety.

I keep seeing the same links being cited as sources for proof of the dangers of vaccination. I thought after the person responsible for starting the hysteria surrounding vaccination was discredited as a profit hungry scare monger this would take a different tone or at least adopt a new argument. They're likely selling dodgy supplements and diet strategies, while that's all well and good I feel like folks telling you to question modern science are too often slinging their own snake oil. Then... If there's an agenda on both sides one would be forced to look at all this inconvenient evidence lying about requiring reading and basic understanding of research. It's not gonna happen. I'll just go buy a hazmat suit, I guess. This level of narrow focus baffles me.

This is why we can't have nice things.

a reply to: hearows

Lets not be vague...where is your finger being pointed so as to better be able to explain? Love to hear you debunk Weston Price

a reply to: Witness2008

I do think children should be vaccinated. But, I am seeing that this 'herd immunity' makes zero sense.

Vaccines are effective only so many years- from 1 to 20, only hep B says life. The CDC has a page suggesting adults receive a whole host of boosters on a schedule. I have only recently learned this. I do not think adults are regularly getting boosters of MMR, DTap, etc. If the herd immunity theory were true, a huge percentage of the population is not currently protected. Not 5%, probably 50%. A huge amount of us should be dropping dead from viruses we no longer have an immunity to, yet we are not.

I do think children should be vaccinated. But, I am seeing that this 'herd immunity' makes zero sense.

Vaccines are effective 7-10 years. The CDC has a page suggesting adults receive a whole host of boosters on a schedule. I have only recently learned this. I do not think adults are regularly getting boosters of MMR, DTap, etc. If the herd immunity theory were true, a huge percentage of the population is not currently protected. Not 5%, probably 50%. A huge amount of us should be dropping dead from viruses we no longer have an immunity to, yet we are not. I do think children should be vaccinated. But, I am seeing that this 'herd immunity' makes zero sense.

Vaccines are effective 7-10 years. The CDC has a page suggesting adults receive a whole host of boosters on a schedule. I have only recently learned this. I do not think adults are regularly getting boosters of MMR, DTap, etc. If the herd immunity theory were true, a huge percentage of the population is not currently protected. Not 5%, probably 50%. A huge amount of us should be dropping dead from viruses we no longer have an immunity to, yet we are not. I agree with you herd immunity makes NO sense.

www.traveldoctor.co.nz...

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Pardon?
They have been proven

I hear this all the time, but have yet to ever see anyone provide anything of substance, beyond baseless claims, or demonstrably false and/or fabricated 'data' or 'studies' that have been 'doctored'.

albeit most haven't gone through the gold standard testing due to the fact that it would be extremely unethical to do so.

As I said earlier, this is demonstrably laughable. In order for this to be true, their efficacy and safety would have to be as obvious as SkepticScot's ridiculous car seat analogy. It is impossible for anything that involves biological processes to ever be this 'obvious'.

So, would you like to re-think your argument?

Not sure why you would ask that, since nothing you provided certainly qualifies as even remotely approaching evidence that would sway a rational person.

Which doctored and fake studies are they?
I suppose whichever studies I show you'll dismiss them anyway however here's some epidemiology data which you can try to refute should you wish.
graphics.wsj.com...

I notice you haven't refuted the "gold standard" studies I posted either.
Which part of them is laughable?
And exactly what would make you change your mind?

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: tanstaafl
I think it a rather nice analogy as it also kind of answers your point about double blind trials. There have never been double blind trials on the effectiveness of kids car seats either, see if you can work out why?

Ridiculous comparison. The safety imparted by the use of a car set is obvious, on its face.

To try to make a similar claim with respect to the use of vaccines, all of which operate at the microscopic level and involve such complex systems as the human immune and related systems, is insane. Even most medical doctors don't have a clue how these things really work.

If you are going to play the 'unethical' card, then I submit to you that such a claim carries the exact same ridiculously erroneous presumption - that their safety and effectiveness were so obvious that such testing would be unethical.

This was obviously not true way back when these vaccines were first introduced, and is just as obviously not true today.

Then maybe you could actually provide some evidence for your assertion that vaccines aren't effective.

Sure...

How about:

vaccineimpact.com...

LOTS of data there disproving the propaganda that vaccines are responsible for wiping out these diseases in the first place, as well as for any ongoing benefit.

While you at it some examples of mandated vaccination at gun point would be nice as well.

I was talking about the calls for this by the pro-vaxxers...this is what they (including apparently many here) want, and, like enforced taxation, would be at gunpoint, if it were ever implemented.

You're right.
There is lots of data on that site.
All of it easily refutable though.
And the same nonsense regurgitated ad nauseam.

I mean, you would think that by now there would actually be a robust study showing the harm that vaccines do instead of just re-hashing all of the old ones.
Yawn.