Germany rejects an extension loan for Hellas (Greece)

a reply to: Ploutonas

Here is the new timetable, as announced by Eurogroup via Tagesschau:

Monday, February 23:
The Greek government must present their list of reform measures, based on the current arrangements.
The reforms have to be based on the commitments of the previous program, Athens can exchange measures as far as budgetary objectives are not compromised.

Tuesday, February 24:
The EU Commission, ECB and IMF (Troika) will evaluate the new Greek reform list. If the list is approved, a four-month extension of the current aid program can be officially decided.
In some countries such as Germany the Parliament has to agree.

Saturday, February 28:
The current aid program, if not extended, would run out.
If everything is approved, the program can be effectively extended by four months to the end of June.

By the end of April:
The Greek government is required to submit their final statement of its reform plans in all detail.

Now we have to wait...

Allow me to share an opinion after 24h with a much clearer mind..

Everything is gray, right now a big part of the government already turn against the core of the government and calling other politicians NOT to vote this program, if ever comes to that.

This government was voted to leave these programs and bailouts, but instead they extend and preparing a new program, a memorandum 3... lol

They promised to expose all scandals, move to jail all traitors, to make a national investigation in the debt... an now all that goes to a black hole.

As I said earlier, all these programs are illegal. If a government accepts it, there is no way for them to turn against them later on... To make a national investigation in the debt, etc. So everybody right now, is in the process to

1) keep up hopes, something like " we needed to earn some time " but we wont follow any programs after the end of the 4 months time table...
2) this government is like the prev ones, deceived people, when they said, NO MORE bailout programs, they will remove all bills from these programs, etc.

so....i dont know...

If you remember, EU start threatening about a bankrun, etc... but they noticed that the Hellenic people, DO NOT fear anymore. That non-fear comes from determination to put an end to all these. I dont know how this government is going to survive, if they choose the path the prev governments followed.

I have no idea how this deal is going to end up. What makes it extreme, if things goes to eu side... Only 2 political powers left for the free minds that want to end this... And these are many!

1) KKE a stalin like far far far left party
2) Golden down a far far far right party.....
lol

here is a link (this link is about what Ive wrote above).

originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505
a reply to: Ploutonas

Take this to your leaders

ANY KIND OF DEAL that still involves Greece using Euro as currency is doomed

Only going back to Greek currency will save Greece

How many Greeks themselves have figured that out, not many I reckon

Understanding economics you'd know that printing their own currency will lead to massive inflation and a worthless currency on the world market making trading for needed commodities prohibitively expensive.

a reply to: nightbringr

originally posted by: nightbringr
Understanding economics you'd know that printing their own currency will lead to massive inflation and a worthless currency on the world market making trading for needed commodities prohibitively expensive.

True.

Understanding the significance of control over currency, and the effect of fiscal centralism on the souvereignty of a nations government, and subsequently the people, there is no other option but to break up the €Z.

- that is IF the preservation of the freedom, well-being, and dignity of the people is the ultimate objective.

Right now in Greece, and generally everywhere in Europe.

a reply to: Ploutonas


Your country went bankrupt. Your leaders spent money they DIDNT have, and then DEFAULTED.

Germany bailed out numerous countries in the EU, but they all seem to not want to make the necessary budget cuts in order to repay these loans. German citizens are paying up to 46% tax, to pay for countries like Greece's bailout package.

So Germany's leaders are refusing to put even more burden on their people to support fiscally irresponsible nations.

And you're mad at GERMANY ????? The problem is with your own leaders.

The whole EU concept was always a bad idea because it removed fiscal sovereignty from the member states and let the world banksters manipulate things even more.

Greeks, Germans, Chinese or Martians, the people are just average good people.

a reply to: 8675309jenny
Thank you Sir!

@OP
So why is it that I mostly see (biased) greek newspapers linked and the are held to be true (including german spiegel/stern propaganda)?
Not to insult you but you are diluded. It´s not germanys(and germanys people) fault that:

a) Your politicans spend money they did not have.
b) A good portion of your politicans were corrupt assholes.
b) Your government decided to try it with the help of the EU (especially GERMANY) and simply failed.
c) You and your people were to blind/lazy/distracted (basically call it whatever) to realise that, with all those overpaid unnecessary Jobs in your government and elsewhere, with all the traitors that got rent for their dead relatives, rent for being blind but are not (could go on a while), it´s not gonna last forever. It was the mass-greed. Of course it´s not the main fault of you people but you just watched.

Don´t be mad at the germans! We were not asked if we want to help you out or not.
Try to expand your horizon. No hate indended.

a reply to: 8675309jenny

Yes, thank you. That is something that we rarely hear from foreigners.

There is alot wrong with the €uroZone and the EU altogether, but blaming us Germans is the goto excuse and not helping anyone.

As Verschickter already said: No one ever asked us if we wanted to be in the EU/€Z in the first place, let alone if we would be okay with bankrolling a system MANY europeans don't even want.

a reply to: verschickter

and

a reply to: ColCurious


It's a shame the world has become a liberal paradise where no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions.

It absolutely infuriates me even more to watch other European nations try to accuse Germany of screwing them when it was Germany who HELPED THEM. But everyone knows it's easy to accuse Germany because if a German ever refuses blame, they just bring up Hitler or the holocau$t.

It's disgusting. Germany went from ASHES to the strongest nation in the world in 12 short years, and then did it AGAIN after WW2, but unfortunately a lot of people in Europe HATE a success story. The people who wish to control the world know that they must keep Germany browbeaten and divided. They have seen Germany rise like a Phoenix three times in the last 150years and it scares the sheisse out of them. That's why all the lies are told about Germany, they must keep the people confused and ashamed of the fake history.

a reply to: 8675309jenny

It's disgusting. Germany went from ASHES to the strongest nation in the world in 12 short years, and then did it AGAIN after WW2, but unfortunately a lot of people in Europe HATE a success story. The people who wish to control the world know that they must keep Germany browbeaten and divided. They have seen Germany rise like a Phoenix three times in the last 150years and it scares the sheisse out of them. That's why all the lies are told about Germany, they must keep the people confused and ashamed of the fake history.

You do know that Germany owes its economic prosperity to the grace of other nations right?.

Here is an article from Spiegel online : Economic Historian: Germany Wass Biggest Debt Transgressor of 20th Century

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The Germany of today is considered the embodiment of stability. How many times has Germany become insolvent in the past?

Ritschl: That depends on how you do the math. During the past century alone, though, at least three times. After the first default during the 1930s, the US gave Germany a "haircut" in 1953, reducing its debt problem to practically nothing. Germany has been in a very good position ever since, even as other Europeans were forced to endure the burdens of World War II and the consequences of the German occupation. Germany even had a period of non-payment in 1990.

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

Now one could debate the historical context and the causalities of what lead to what.
I won't do that, as this goes way off topic and there were (and always will be) other threads to discuss those points.

You replying with this Spiegel article goes to show one thing though:
There is a deep misunderstanding of what leads to "economic prosperity" here.
If you would just for once look at why Germany was/is succesful, or what the German way really is, you would see that there is more to the trick than simply throwing money at your problems.

Actually I made a thread about that once.
Have a look:
Deny your ingorance about Germany

originally posted by: Seed76
a reply to: 8675309jenny


You do know that Germany owes its economic prosperity to the grace of other nations right?.


Peace

Wrong.

In 2010 Germany finished payin back every dime in WW1 reparations & US loans, PLUS interest! Finland is the only country who can claim the same concerning WW2, and Germany continues to pay the WW2 reparations and rebuilding loans. The rest of the European nations who took American loans after WW2 defaulted and never looked back.

a reply to: ColCurious

You replying with this Spiegel article goes to show one thing though:
There is a deep misunderstanding of what leads to "economic prosperity" here.
If you would just for once look at why Germany was/is succesful, or what the German way really is, you would see that there is more to the trick than simply throwing money at your problems.

I am not arguing about the family firm business or about the "Ausbildung" that those companies give to the youngsters with the prospect to get hired and work and what they do for the economy or about the "Dumping-Lohn" politic. The point i made is still valid and it was in response of the previous poster who pretty much said we done it ourselves after WW2 without mentioning that if there wasn´t a solid basis in form "Cuts" and a "Marshall-Plan" wouldn´t been any solid basis for that.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The Germany of today is considered the embodiment of stability. How many times has Germany become insolvent in the past?

Ritschl: That depends on how you do the math. During the past century alone, though, at least three times. After the first default during the 1930s, the US gave Germany a "haircut" in 1953, reducing its debt problem to practically nothing. Germany has been in a very good position ever since, even as other Europeans were forced to endure the burdens of World War II and the consequences of the German occupation. Germany even had a period of non-payment in 1990.

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

This is really a tedious point to argue and Ritschl's position here isn't exactly beyond dispute.

FYI:
Germany was neither the only, nor even the biggest beneficiary of the European Recovery Program, or "Marshall-Plan", which is considered as repayed by the way.
Fact is, as of 3rd October 2010, the Federal Republic of Germany made the last payment (~70 mil €) and this was considered to be the last payment on all known debts resulting from both world wars.

And if the ERP (btw.: something around U$D 160 billion in current value) was the reason behind our success/recovery, how come Greece isn't flourishing now?

Again... this approach isn't helpful to the problems of your country at all.

a reply to: ColCurious

This is really a tedious point to argue and Ritschl's position here isn't exactly beyond dispute.

Tedious or not still is a valid point. And what is in dispute ? The "Cuts" or the "Marshall - plan" ? Are you saying that those points mentioned by the historian didn´t helped Germany?

Again... this approach isn't helpful to the problems of your country at all.

Well. To be honest, my country has many problems and we will deal them appropriately.

Anyway lets go back on topic.

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

originally posted by: Seed76
Well. To be honest, my country has many problems and we will deal them appropriately.

That's what we hear since March 2010. 5 Years ago.
Don't you think the scepticism of German taxpayers towards Greece has some merit to it?

originally posted by: Seed76
Anyway lets go back on topic.

Agreed.
I thought the topic was dealing with the problems of your country?
That's why we we're all waiting for the "list of reform measures" after all.

here is an interesting article, the video is in germanic and I dont speak this language, nor interested to learn it.

so, the articles states, Soible recorded with a hidden cam, claiming that everything for the Hellenic debt and austerity is pre-decided and organised (with an illegal manner).

rutube.ru...

a reply to: Ploutonas
Yes, continue living in your racism mindset.
He was not recorded with a "hidden cam". The translation is slightly out of context. In favor of your theory.
Who is the one asking for money? Is it my government or yours?

You as a greek citizen, should protest the street to NOT take this money. Let´s see what happens...NOTHING

a reply to: verschickter

its not racism, not to like a language... Is it racism, not to like electronic music as well?

I stated, what the article claims and I can't speak german, so I cannot confirm it. Thats why, if you speak german, you could tell us, if its true or not.

I am not protesting as a greek, But I scream like Ellinas, not to take any money and move out, if we have to. Not because we dont like Europe, but because we dont like THIS kind of eu and at the same time, it turns to be the only way, be able to report all this illegal things, they've done to this country. Because as long as we stay, I dont think they will allow to expose all the scandals, all the illegal debt and report them as a country. Thats the basic reason... no hate involved. Did you know, one of the extension rules, is not allowing this government to take any actions, by themselves. So they cannot make a nation investigation about debt, etc.

And lets be reasonable.. Who likes a union that you cannot report the corruption and illegal things. Nobody I believe.

As for fresh/today news... many politicians from the current government reported, they will devote the new agreement. So the government, tries to find a different path to pass this agreement and without voting. Because they will have huge internal problems if it comes into that.

(offtopic)
and again, for racism, germans shouldnt speak about racism at all... If you need to see some racism / monkeys... watch this video in the link ( www.theguardian.com... ), there is no need to be translated, just the video... It happened 1-2 days ago. These statues are from Asyrians (Syria) - Asour, guardians of the skies, a different kind of Babylona with magicians, mantis, etc. I wonder, which gods these monkeys provoked. Legends speak from the past, when humans provoke gods, a war begins. Not a war between humans, but more like a war between humans and ultra dimensional beings. Fingers crossed. End of (offtopic)

originally posted by: Ploutonas
so, the articles states, Soible recorded with a hidden cam, claiming that everything for the Hellenic debt and austerity is pre-decided and organised (with an illegal manner).

I'm sorry but that is not what the recording is about. At all.
But it fits the stupid narrative of "Ze evil German conspiracy to rule europe in a 4th Reich" of course.

Schäuble even mentions that the people in Germany are getting more and more sceptical.
"[...] denn die vertrauen schon unseren Entscheidungen zu Griechenland nicht"

Translated:
"[...] because they [Germans] already don't trust our decisions regarding Greece."

What Schäuble says is - if it was for the German people, there wouldn't be any more loans.

On topic:
Anything new on the 'problem-solving' side?
I haven't heard anything new about the actual implementation of reforms in Greece since the last agreement was concluded.

So what is your take on this, Ploutonas? How would you argue to a German taxpayer that the agreement is worth it?
How will Syriza use their first term in power? Is their program economically promising in your opinion?

originally posted by: Ploutonas
a reply to: verschickter

You are not interested in germanic language and I say, like ColCurious, that the translation is out of context. You simply have to believe us. Thats the price for holding up ignorance high... or learn german...or even english! Because that´s what they talk. Wait...This means you did not watched the video at all? You say you only read the article? In greek? from a greek?

I stated, what the article claims and I can't speak german, so I cannot confirm it. Thats why, if you speak german, you could tell us, if its true or not.

First of all, research your ## before you talk ##.
Second, thats what I did. I told you it´s false information.

(offtopic)
and again, for racism, germans shouldnt speak about racism at all... (offtopic)

You´re a funny human being. So why exactly should germans not point out racism? Be careful what you answer. You might cut your own finger. So you suggest we, as german post-racists, should not point out other cases of racism? You mean we should just watch others doing the same # as we? Man you are pathetic!

ColCurious
But it fits the stupid narrative of "Ze evil German conspiracy to rule europe in a 4th Reich" of course.

Sums it up pretty much.