Germany rejects an extension loan for Hellas (Greece)

Greece formally requested a loan-extension, but left out the (previously agreed on) point in the paper that Greece must achieve a primary budget surplus of 3% of their annual economic output this year.

Says who the "BILD" Zeitung ?

No they didn´t left anything out, they simply said given the current situation in Greece with 0 Growth its will be utopic to achieve the goal above. Instead they proposed a loan - extension as agreed but with some modifications on it in order to end the "Humanitarian-Crisis" that is plaguing Greece. By doing that its obvious that the 3% will not get reached. That proposal was accepted at first but then rejected from Germany. And since Germany is the biggest economy the other countries simply backed up.

From my point of view the constant "NEIN" of Mr. Schäubler and the German government is not helpful for anyone. Or the bullying and blackmailing from the big banks and ECB, didn´t done any good at all. A "Grexit" will not help anyone. In fact it will lead to the dissolvement of the current EU. And the cost from a "Grexit" will be huge for the EU-Citizens. For example i have read an article--need to find it again--which basically said that a "Grexit" will cost France 1000€/Person.

All in all i am simply hoping for a solution that will be acceptable from everyone. Growth must return to Greece and end the humanitarian crisis. And all those that are responsible need to get "jailed" or worse.

Peace

originally posted by: Seed76
Says who the "BILD" Zeitung ?

Is Reuters good enough? Tagesschau maybe? Or Business Insider?


This is the part in a Reuters article from Feb 19:

However, the document stopped short of accepting that Greece should achieve a primary budget surplus, excluding debt service, equal to three percent of the country's annual economic output this year, as promised under the bailout deal.

Source

Or have a look at the official reply on why Schäuble refused to accept Greece's paper, as it was leaked on Twitter.com.

in 1 hour and 20 minutes the eurogroup starts.

there is 2 scenarios

1) an agreement is made for 6 months and talks about a new program based on growth.

2) an agreement fails and we go for referendum. But there is also talks about new elections and I wish that "NOT". Because their % to be voted again, raised dramatically, from 36%, they are 45%!! That means they will be in power all alone and we dont want that. Because a stand alone government far left radical, is not the best, especially for a country like Hellas (that also means, we exit eurozone)

At the same time the far right parties increased dramatically also! Right now we have Syriza (far left) and ANEL (far right) together - both have common goals against troyka and austerity, they only differ in immigration and some other national things. Also Golden Down increasing too. All the prev ones (Nea Dhmokratia, Pasok, Potami) decreased and the first 2 - dramatically (pasok is outside if we go for new elections.

Pasok from 6% goes to 1.5% and Nea Dhmokratia the prev government, from 28, down to 15-12%.

originally posted by: ColCurious

originally posted by: Seed76
Says who the "BILD" Zeitung ?

Is Reuters good enough? Tagesschau maybe? Or Business Insider?

Or have a look at the official reply on why Schäuble refused to accept Greece's paper, as it was leaked on Twitter.com.

And you can take a look the following link. It has the whole text from Greece that Mr.Schaubler refuses. From 19/02/2015 Germany rejects Greek proposal

And here is the 30 side long text from 11/2/2015 until 16/2/2015 11/02/2015-16/02/2015

I am only hoping for a common solution.

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

I am hoping for a good solution too. I just don't see a solution that is good for the Greek, or German people, within the current EU/€Z paragdigm.

And thanks alot for the second link. I didn't have that version yet.

This is the part where Varoufakis and Schäuble disagree:

We propose a maximum 1.5% of GDP primary surplus objective, from as soon as the present disturbed economic situation has stabilized and for as long as necessary to achieve the underlying goals.

Aside from the fact that this is half of what was previously agreed on, the 'timeline' couldn't be more vague.
Any serious legal examination has to rate this as way too unprecise.

originally posted by: Seed76
From my point of view the constant "NEIN" of Mr. Schäubler and the German government is not helpful for anyone. Or the bullying and blackmailing from the big banks and ECB, didn´t done any good at all. A "Grexit" will not help anyone. In fact it will lead to the dissolvement of the current EU. And the cost from a "Grexit" will be huge for the EU-Citizens. For example i have read an article--need to find it again--which basically said that a "Grexit" will cost France 1000€/Person.
All in all i am simply hoping for a solution that will be acceptable from everyone. Growth must return to Greece and end the humanitarian crisis. And all those that are responsible need to get "jailed" or worse.
Peace

I am getting the feeling that Germany is using Greece to 'fix' the constant budget problems in the EU. For years now countries haven't followed the guidelines and in a common currency union that can really cause monetary distortions. The Germans look to make an example of Greece and force harsh conditions on them or boot them out of the EU. Both will show other EU members there is a limit to not following the EU guidelines.

I don't think the EU will suffer terribly from a Greek exit of the EU, besides the loans being written off.

I give you the last momment news...

Here is why Spain is against us... Because Rachoi is another greek (not Hellenas) Samaras - from new democracy party... link

Malta will ask from us to move out Euro - link

7 countries against Hellas - link

Live coverage from eurogroup - www.iefimerida.gr...

scroll down in the live coverage link and press play (its live image)

a reply to: ColCurious

Yes!! Because as i mentioned previously under the current status of Greece with 0 Growth the 3.5% is utopia. A reallistic approach is the 1.5%. The 3.5% will get reached only with further and harsher measures get imposed to the Greek people. And believe me the Greek people had enough of measures imposed by others that yielding with 0 results. And now that we are trying to find a common solution Germany is against.

We just going to have to wait and see what the result will be on todays Eurogroup.



Peace

a reply to: noeltrotsky

I am getting the feeling that Germany is using Greece to 'fix' the constant budget problems in the EU. For years now countries haven't followed the guidelines and in a common currency union that can really cause monetary distortions.

No!!! Germany is using Greece because if they agree to the 1.5% instead of the 3.5% other countries like Italy-Spain-Portugal will follow the example of Greece and ask for relief measures. That in return will give the message that the "Sparpolitik" that the German government is following have failed. And that will weaken the current power that Germany has.

I don't think the EU will suffer terribly from a Greek exit of the EU, besides the loans being written off.

And who is going to pay the bill of the written of loan? The EU-citizens?

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

I agree that this is all about the precedent it could set.

- If Schäuble gives in (and he might) and the "Sparpolitik" goes out the window, we might aswell give up on the idea of a sound fiscal and sustainable €uroZone.

- If we witness Grexit happening over this, it sets the precedent that a nation can actually leave the €uro.

I believe both will ultimately lead to the same result.

a reply to: ColCurious

- If Schauble gives in (and he might) and the "Sparpolitik" goes out the window, we might aswell give up on the idea of a sound fiscal and sustainable €uroZone.

There is difference between abandoning the "Sparpolitik" and adapting it. Changing some parts that clearly are not working doesn´t necessary means failure. That is main point of Greek proposal.

- If we witness Grexit happening, this sets the precedent that a nation can actually leave the €uro.

If a "Grexit" happens and given the current "Anti-Eu" sentinment that are in EU because of the continually "Sparpolitik" and "No´s", a "Grexit" will be expensive and will mean the end of EU. Not immediately of course but in the next 2-4 years.

Peace

originally posted by: Seed76
There is difference between abandoning the "Sparpolitik" and adapting it. Changing some parts that clearly are not working doesn´t necessary means failure. That is main point of Greek proposal.

Make it work. Balance it the way you like, but make the numbers work.
If it isn't possible in Greece, or elsewhere in the €uroZone but here, then the idea is clearly destined to fail anyways.
So let it fail.

originally posted by: Seed76
If a "Grexit" happens and given the current "Anti-Eu" sentinment that are in EU because of the continually "Sparpolitik" and "No´s", a "Grexit" will be expensive and will mean the end of EU. Not immediately of course but in the next 2-4 years.

It would be much more expensive (in more than one way) in the long run to keep it artificially alive.
If it can't live on a fiscal sound basis, it is clearly destined to fail at some point anyways.
So let it fail.

in 2009 the traitorous government of PASOK - Papandreou, raised the debt of our country, in cooperation with Rademacher and in 1 night... In order to move us into IMF. link

Hellas debt was about 106-110b and today its 380b because of these programs. Ofcourse it is not sustainable and no such programs exist without growth, be able to make it sustainable.

An beyond that, everything is illegal. Germans and PASOK government worked hard to manipulate the debt of our country, in order to implement austerity and drain money out of us... only interests.

Did you know that germany took more than 100b from the interests, all these 5 years? This is over and thats what the Hellenic government says... NO MORE LOANS for repaying interests, they dont ask a loan to repay interests anymore. because all these money they borrow, goes to a black hole and the debt increases.

All these are illegal and they have to stop, I am sure all countries, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland is the same thing. It is just us, that we speak laud.

a reply to: Ploutonas

Listen, I really feel for the greek people. But anti-german sentiment isn't really helping.

If you make "Ze evil Germans" responsible for the actions of a few (who do not represent our Government or the people), then by the same analogy the Greek people are fully responsible for the actions of their previous corrupt politicians.

they achieved 4 months extension without any new austerity bills and Hellas will decide which goals of the prev program wish to fulfill and add as new.

eg..
1) Corruption
2) for those who avoid to pay tax (wealthy people)
3) humanitarian crisis - aid (includes free electricity for poor people, increase very low pensions and basic income to 751)...
and one more cant remember.

the next program is the hardest part... and its like take it or leave it. Out or in. In 4 months, they must make a new program, this is an extension be able to make a new progra. If eu countries wish austerity, we will encounter a much bigger thing, than today. And this government already says : repay of debt only with growth. Now if eu countries dont want growth, but austerity....It will be another story.

Now the spanish Podemos will take advantage of it... Be ready for spanish elections. In 30 minutes after this edit, they will make official announcements.

a reply to: Ploutonas

It's still being reported as 'a rumor' here in Canada from what I see. The stock market has jumped up significantly so there probably is a temp deal in place.

Just moving the problem 4 months down the road isn't really a solution though. Of course the new Greek government deserves some time to prepare. They just got elected so that is the least the EU can allow.

its 100% correct, thats what all the media speak here. In 10 minutes, they will make official announcements, take the link and watch it live.

www.iefimerida.gr...

its a hellenic link, but if you scroll a bit down, youll find the player, click play.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

It looks like it is only moved down the road until monday:

Greece must produce a list of reforms by Monday (according to the Guardian and der Spiegel), detailing:
- how it will crack down on tax evasion and corruption,
- how it will reform the country’s dysfunctional public administration, and
- how it will tackle Greece’s humanitarian crisis and finance it.

Chancellor Merkel's comment was: "There is a need for significant improvements in the substance of what is being discussed so that we can vote on it in the German Bundestag."

So we will see on monday if the numbers work out.
If they don't, the Bundestag won't accept more loans to Greece... and tuesday is the deadline for the Greek banks.

Also, since Tsipras had to make concessions, he will probably face uproar on the home front.
So the radical left in Greece is another unknown factor.

TL;DR: nothing is certain until monday.

they removed all terms and measures for decreasing income and pensions and anything has to do with low/mid class citizens. Also removed the increasement about VAT its allready 23% and they wanted more (crazy)!!! They added the humanitarian aid and removed the troyka, it will be only european team and will speak ONLY in a political level, not inside organizations and giving commands, as they did since recently. Also they removed the 3.5% growth and it will depend in the economic status.

if you wish to read the document its here link

a reply to: Ploutonas

So if Greece is Kogi, they are going to accept a peaceful solution, then go back on their word, and destroy Greece to kill some Germans?