Do Women Find It Difficult Communicating Intellectually?

I've noticed this trend throughout my life.

Women are very expert in gender specific communication (with their own sex) in terms of grapevine gossip (frenetic vocal activity), not denying that.

However, when I think of other areas of communication I see that many women (not all as some ATS members demonstrate) are not represented.

How many classic female poets are there? I can think of so many males;

Homer, Virgil, Dante, Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Coleridge, Byron, Shelley, Keats, Browning, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Owen, Graves, Eliot, Pound, Hughes, Ginsberg, the list is actually very long. Yet I can think of no major female classic poets. Why is this? Is it ONLY because women were oppressed before or is there more to it?

In literature it is the same. Ninety nine percent of classic literature is by male authors.

On ATS possibly 90% of contributing members are male.

What is the problem, Ladies? Has the cat cut your tongue? I want to know what is going on with you. I don't want to know about imaginary childish wizards like Harry Potter. I don't want to know about the angst and suicidal madness of Sylvia Plath. Yes, your experiences of childhood abuse is worth using the medium of novels for, like Maya Angelo and Alice Walker, but it is still void of an empowered intellectual voice. Such novels bemoan your victimhood and that is most necessary, but WHEN will you have an intellectual voice? When will you be able to write a novel like Joseph Conrad could or a poem like T S Eliot?

Yes, I am challenging you big time. I want you to come out the closet with men. I want you to have an intelligent and equal voice. I want you to have no fear when talking with males, that you may become as open and unabashed as your male counterparts.

Where is your voice? Speak! It is like if you talk with men you feel that you are betraying your partner. Is it a lack of confidence? Is it distrust of men? Lets evolve past this and be able to relate across genders.

Just wanted to throw one idea at you. In the past, how equal were women's rights?

I don't understand why women would have to be 'challenged' by men because certain men were great writers. That doesn't mean that men are collectively great writers and intellectuals; just that some were. It seems illogical to me to somehow claim some credit for that. Considering that I don't see why I or other women should 'prove' ourselves to the other gender because some individuals of that gender gave false reasons to other members to somehow claim merit.

And what if you or another specific person were a genius, why would that require of your partner that she somehow should 'prove' herself to you? I fail to see the 'logical step' there.

I just find that argument weird- ''men are better/smarter because they invented stuff or wrote books, and even though I didn't (and may be far below average- not every man is brilliant) do any of that, I still can say that US MEN are obviously superior for X reason and you should own up to that!'' (or even tolerate being discriminated against). It makes no sense. Just like it makes no sense to tell me 'woman X did Y in her life, now that makes you a stupid person!'' I don't claim any merit of smart women either.

To me, the whole point seems both moot and vain.

ETA: It's as silly as me walking up to a non-white person to say: ''White Person X invented that device! Now invent something just as special or it means that you as an individual are inferior to me as an individual even though I never invented anything important myself.''

Besides, I think it's a bit unfair how some people approach the matter. Yes, there're great male writers, but there're also plenty of wife-beaters, child abusers and warlords, to name a few. Addressing that is suddenly misandry, though. (usually)

a reply to: Antipathy17

Yes, you are right. I did say that if you read when I talked about Alice Walker and Maya Angelo.

I am just saying there is a huge vacuum. There is no longer (in the West at least) that excuse. Women, in Law and Rights, now have equality.

There is a growing impact by Women in Arts, in Politics, in Science, Journalism, etc. There is a vacuum of serious intellectual impact, though.

Men have a voice as old as the hills. Women are historically almost silent. It is a very unhealthy thing.

Also, this raises a serious question of civilization. Now that women have civil empowerment they must realise what comes with this; RESPONSIBILITY.

This is not an attack. I am being brutally honest and not treating women with kid gloves. I am asking them to SPEAK! I am asking them to write their "take" on this life we experience together.

I wrote this because I am not seeing it. I am seeing an unhealthy development unfolding.

In terms of development and civilization communication on the deepest levels of intellect is paramount. That is what drives our evolution. It is important now that we do this intergenderly (damn I had to make that word up, shows the vacuity of language even to describe the genders relating).

I was reading that David Cameron did not even know what Magna Carter was and said when asked by President Obama. We are losing the intellectual plot as cultures. I would put up a signpost saying "hazard ahead", as a warning. Yet who would listen to it? Does anybody really care about such things anymore?

originally posted by: Pitou
I don't understand why women would have to be 'challenged' by men because certain men were great writers. That doesn't mean that men are collectively great writers and intellectuals; just that some were. It seems illogical to me to somehow claim some credit for that. Considering that I don't see why I or other women should 'prove' ourselves to the other gender because some individuals of that gender gave false reasons to other members to somehow claim merit.

And what if you or another specific person were a genius, why would that require of your partner that she somehow should 'prove' herself to you? I fail to see the 'logical step' there.

I just find that argument weird- ''men are better/smarter because they invented stuff or wrote books, and even though I didn't (and may be far below average- not every man is brilliant) do any of that, I still can say that US MEN are obviously superior for X reason and you should own up to that!'' (or even tolerate being discriminated against). It makes no sense. Just like it makes no sense to tell me 'woman X did Y in her life, now that makes you a stupid person!'' I don't claim any merit of smart women either.

To me, the whole point seems both moot and vain.

ETA: It's as silly as me walking up to a non-white person to say: ''White Person X invented that device! Now invent something just as special or it means that you as an individual are inferior to me as an individual even though I never invented anything important myself.''

Besides, I think it's a bit unfair how some people approach the matter. Yes, there're great male writers, but there're also plenty of wife-beaters, child abusers and warlords, to name a few. Addressing that is suddenly misandry, though. (usually)

You are misunderstanding me. You need to read very carefully what I am writing to get my point or you will just blow a fuse and react in a knee jerk fashion.

What you have written here is that you are not going to deal with the world on an intellectual basis, out of the canon of history and literature. You think it vain that you are even being asked to do so. You are saying that canon has no meaning for women now and they can throw it away.

Is it vain for me to challenge you intellectually and culturally? Is that, too, putting women down now? Of course it isn't. I'll be brutal and say I am trying to raise women from the dead. I am saying you now have a responsibility to civilization and I want you to use it; not just on a shallow level, but to become part of that development and not drag it down to a level that suits you. It is that question; did Euripides write "Medea as a warning?"

Women need men as much as men need women. I am saying I need you. I am saying thanks that you are here at ATS. I want you to THINK, deep and hard.

I communicate very well intellectually.

However, often females and males don't compute it very well, they either think it as the result of ''gender issues'' (all woman, no gender issues here), or they feel the need to comment on it being extraordinary. Sometimes men see it as a threat where no threat was intended, if they aren't cool with intelligent women then they have issues.

Women are socially conditioned in the west and many other places for flippancy, gossip and acting 'girly' and superficial, not all of us are like that naturally, preferring a more honest approach to life.

I wasn't called pretty by my parents, in fact the opposite, while all my female friends were primped and preened, in pretty dresses, posing for photos etc, I was denied pretty clothes, mirrors were placed too high for me to see in, I spent most of my time escaping either in the woods, where typically 'boyish' clothes are more practical, I also love nature, happily spending time learning about the real world and how it works, trees, flowers, plants, animals etc, often spending lots of time in the library, I was and am an avid learner and I very much enjoy reading intelligent material.

If I exhibited girly behaviour as a child, like singing and dancing (which I enjoy) it was chastised, so I also honed my skills in physical activities like running, became great at skipping, heights, climbing high walls, various sports etc so my pre and early teen years were again less than typically girly.

When I went to secondary school and spent more time with friends I found that boys /men were /are interested in me, that was like a cyclone to me, I didn't know how to comprehend it as I never considered myself one of the pretty girls or part of the whole social boy/girl thing, I considered boys more as either pests or friends.

Even now in my 40's I find women sometimes don't like other women that aren't on the giggle /gossip /flippant bandwagon so I tend to avoid that sort.

I like having fun but perhaps in a less superficial way than the average woman. I also like talking about intellectual things as they are interesting and important to me. If more people considered life on a deeper level, the world would probably be a better place.

There are great classic female writers, though the percentage is perhaps due to a male dominated culture. I have written some myself and when in nature have sometimes experienced prolific poetry in my mind via immense inspiration.

I don't think it's that just women have a serious issue communicating intellectually. Look at society top to bottom and you are going to find a serious lack of great thinkers when you compare what passes for "great" today against what passed for great when those authors you cited were active.

I did notice that you missed the Bronte sisters, Jane Austen and Mary Shelley. Austen at least is very highly regarded.

But today's society in general is not set up to reward deep and logical, rational thought as desirable. Most people don't get it or want it. Really just pull a piece of great literature from the modern era and compare the text with that of great literature from the Enlightenment period even from Mark Twain. You will notice the vocabulary is generally much more shallow, the sentence complexity is generally less, and there is far less description and attention to detail.

It's like movies. They've gone from actual stories to just extravaganzas of action with little to no plot because today's script writers grew up writing based off of movies instead of writing based off of having read the great stories of the past.

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

I have quite a few female friends here,its not just men posting.
Ironically as a man who hates dating...most of my pals on ats are women and they are all great and beautiful minds.

Your figure of 90% males is not correct....I made all these female friends almost by accident so the math seems to be not plausible to me.

Yeah, the female to male ration on ATS, is probably closer to 60/40.

I don't think women have a hard time discussing anything intellectually. Most of the smartest people I've ever met were women.

The smartest person I do know in life currently, is a woman. A damn good one at that.

But yeah, I don't think there's any challenge to be had. Woman have relatively equal footing in the first world, and are outpacing men in things like finance, government, education, human resources.

So yeah, it's a good thing.

~Tenth

originally posted by: DrumsRfun
a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

I have quite a few female friends here

Allegedly female.

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

That is very refreshing to read. Now I will hint at how important women like you are.

You are rare, my friend. There are not many women like you. I wrote this thread to encourage you. As a male I want to interact with you intellectually and not sexually. I am saying that women like you have the ability to desexualise men so that they will not become the "pests" you all know so well. Rihanna, Madonna, Rowling, will only fuel the perception virus you all know so well. Do you now understand why I said "responsibility"?

It does matter that you are a woman. We can't just bypass that by trying to make us all the same, God forbid that sexual Marxism. I say to women don't destroy what you were/are.

Really I would only encourage you. I see from your post a great healthiness of spirit and independent thought. I just want to tell women like you please don't abandon male thought. The intellectual part of ourselves is so very important.

I would also like to say in response to your comment that you can be as boyish or girlish as you like. Wear a pretty dress and lots of make up or don't. There is no blue print and no judgement like that.

I just noticed that most of the women who did make any kind of stamp on history and literature have been almost like victim martyrs, to date. Sylvia Plath squandered her talent with suicide. Emily Dickinson had a miserable life. The very intellectual Lady Jane Grey, Queen for nine days, was beheaded. Alice Walker and Maya Angelo are consumed with reactionism against the horrors of their childhood and are intellectually sabotaged by it in some respects. Amy Winehouse squanders herself, despite a great talent, to a death most unnecessary. My ex wife killed herself last year. Again, a victim of child abuse. Squandered herself in alcohol and drugs. I am not exaggerating when I say that my ex was as good a poet and as intellectual as Sylvia Plath. I would even suggest that child abuse and sexual abuse against women is the most effective tool to sabotage their positive intellect. Damn those perpetrators to hell for this destruction.

Thank goodness for people like you. Yes you are right I have read what you write many times and you communicate very intellectually. I am only encouraging women. I have just, through my life, seen so many short falls and pits that women have fallen into. Men can teach you much about avoiding those pits. Poetry is the very best emotion informant.

It was my ex that taught me about poetry and unlocked my mind. It was almost a mystical intellectual experience how she woke a dormant part of my mind up. Before that I was pretty much a street urchin. Now I am a very deep thinking individual indeed with so much great reading and art that my soul has "surrendered" to. My intellectual mind was woken by a woman. May I suggest that you women can do the very same and let these great writers into your souls, despite the fact that they are male. Don't be coloured by the beast cruelties of men. Those men I have stated in my OP all had a great reverence for you as their muses.

I am a girly professional technical writer. Install that in your airborne medicament consumption device and inhale it into your pulmonary organs.

a reply to: Shakawkaw

Not allegedly....reality.

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

Do I find it difficult to communicate intellectually?
No.
I find it hard to find OTHER people to communicate intellectually with.

I also don't waste my time with people who make generalized sweeping statements about a particular gender, race, religion, etc.

Next question?

jacygirl

Maybe women aren't driven by competition so much. I have no interest in writing a book and I am a guy. I would rather restore an old car or put in a garden. I would rather plant strawberries and raspberries. Not all guys are interested in writing and that does not make them inferior and it does not make women inferior because they do not want to write a book either.

Desires and wants should steer your interests. Women make good artists and play musical instruments well. I do not have a desire to do that, but I do like to listen to music and look at art. I do like to read research no matter who the author is but do not want to be doing all the research myself, stuck in a lab.

originally posted by: graceunderpressure
I am a girly professional technical writer. Install that in your airborne medicament consumption device and inhale it into your pulmonary organs.

had to read that twice.. Pretty funny.......



..


..For a Girl!!

Of course, most of the women I work with (I work in publishing so I work with mainly women) are not as involved with current events. They do have a very shallow understanding of what's going on in the world, but I do have to bite my tongue a lot.

Most women, not myself, are more wrapped up in the day to day of getting kids and spouses into and out of school, work, etc. More microcosm oriented than macrocosm worried.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Thank you for that info.

I am only saying women's contribution here is to be encouraged.

I have seen, as I said, some seriously horrible things happen to women. I just want that "voice" to be freed and unscathed by childhood psychological sabotage and to be contributing in a healthy way.

I am not trying to offend. I am bemoaning the woes of culture and civilization. I want to only to see it develop in a positive way.

To the other poster; I wanted to wait to see what female names members brought up as authors, poets,etc. Brontes et al are obvious classical gems.

I of course want to know what everybody thinks and their experiences. Yet this has been mine.

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

What is the problem, Ladies?

The problem has been a patriarchal system that has oppressed women for thousands of years. Women have had to fight this political and religious system every step of the way to even be taken seriously as a human, instead of someones property or pet. In America, women couldn't vote until around 1920. The first female to hold public office was around the same time I think. The list is endless. Women weren't even considered serious academics.

It isn't that women have been so silent. It's that they have been silenced. They are still being discriminated against today. Especially by the patriarchal religions.

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

There are more, but you have to basically have to go searching for them.

I took an entire college course of women who wrote plays in the era when involvement in theatre automatically got you classified as a whore.

If there are very few female great names, well consider that just like we have today in contemporary fiction, there was a whole slew of authors of both genders although there were, for obvious reasons given the period, more men than women. What we study are the very cream of the cream of the crop. When you study literature at the uni level, you can find entire courses dedicated to having dug out more of the "lesser" lights which is where you will find more of those women you never hear about.

My degree is English, so I've been exposed to some. And while they are good, there is a reason why they aren't immortal like your Jane Austen, and that's why the average person doesn't know about them.