Weapons supplies to Kiev to violate international law — self-proclaimed DPR

I'd like to see the pro-Putin lot deny Russian involvement in this when it is clear they have been testing new weapons and tactics in Eastern Ukraine.

They are essentially using Ukraine as a large proving ground for their forces after the debacle of the Georgia invasion in 2008 - the Russians have learnt a lot and want to know how their systems fair since, especially if the Ukraine gets new toys from the US as they'll be able to match them up to NATO hardware for comparison.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: DJW001

"All warfare is based on deception.
Sun-Tzu"

And just Maybe its the West deceiving ??????

.....

Riouz

originally posted by: Riouz

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: DJW001

"All warfare is based on deception.
Sun-Tzu"

And just Maybe its the West deceiving ??????

.....

Riouz

The west is not supplying pro Russians with weapons.. Russia is.
The west is not supplying pro Russians with manpower - Russia is.
The west did not invade Ukraine - Russia did.
The west did not occupy / annex Crimea - Russia did.

The west is not lying to the world about whats going in Ukraine - Russia is.

So my guess would be Russia is the one deceiving. Further more they have been caught time and again lying about their involvement in Ukraine.

a reply to: Xcathdra

originally posted by: kitzik
Of course Kiev regime is responsible for genocide in Donbass,

Feel free to support this claim with facts / sources please. Contrary to popular belief here in the west if you make an accusation you need to back it up.

Amnesty International good enough for You ?

The call came as Amnesty International published fresh research collected on the ground in the northern Luhansk region, Abuses and war crimes by the Aidar Volunteer Battalion in the north Luhansk region, documenting a growing range of abuses by the Aidar Volunteer battalion.
Aidar is one of more than thirty so-called volunteer battalions to have emerged in the wake of the conflict which have been loosely integrated into Ukrainian security structures as they seek to retake separatist held areas.
Amnesty International has documented a growing spate of abuses, including abductions, unlawful detention, ill-treatment, robbery, extortion, and possible executions committed by the Aidar battalion. Some of these amount to war crimes.
www.amnesty.org...

a reply to: kitzik

Let's be fair, both sides are breaking the rules of War and Amnesty are quite keen to point that out:

“There is no doubt that summary killings and atrocities are being committed by both pro-Russian separatists and pro-Kyiv forces in Eastern Ukraine, but is difficult to get an accurate sense of the scale of these abuses. It is likely that many have not yet been exposed and that others have been deliberately misrecorded.It is also clear that some of the more shocking cases that have been reported, particularly by Russian media, have been hugely exaggerated,” said John Dalhuisen, Europe and Central Asia Director at Amnesty International.

Killings of detainees by pro-Russian insurgent groups
Amnesty International has received a growing number of allegations of execution-style and other deliberate killings in eastern Ukraine by separatist forces since the start of the conflict in April 2014. Victims have included pro-Ukrainian activists and suspected sympathisers, local criminals and detained combatants.

The first apparent confirmation of these allegations was the discovery of two bodies on 19 April 2014 near the town Raigorodok in Donetsk Region. They were later identified as Volodymyr Rybak, a local pro-Ukrainian activist and MP from Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) party, and Yury Popravko, a student from Kyiv. The bodies bore signs of torture.

Amnesty International found compelling evidence of the killing of two captives on 22 July. Both were held by separatist fighters in the police detention facility they had taken over in Severodonetsk, Luhansk Region.

A Severodonetsk businessman detained in the facility at the time for suspected links with the Batkivshchyna party, told Amnesty International:

At 4.30 am a fighter woke us, shouting “Up! Evacuation!” They opened three or four cell doors, and in all I heard six to eight gunshots. It was like roulette – some were shot, some released, some taken away.

“Amnesty International has not found or been presented with any compelling evidence of mass killings or graves. What we have seen are isolated incidents of summary executions that in some cases constitute war crimes. These abuses must stop. All suspected cases should be effectively investigated and those responsible from both sides prosecuted,” said John Dalhuisen.

Amnesty

a reply to: stumason

Let's be fair, both sides are breaking the rules of War and Amnesty are quite keen to point that out

Yes, both sides.
But the specific question of this thread was to show that DPR claims are false. I stayed strictly on the topic ( despite being accused of thread derailing) and showed that DPR claims are not so ridiculous as the topic starter presented.

a reply to: kitzik

Thank you for the link.

Here are the first couple of paragraphs you left out -

“The Ukrainian authorities must not replicate the lawlessness and abuses that have prevailed in areas previously held by separatists,” said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International Secretary General from Kyiv.

and

“The failure to stop abuses and possible war crimes by volunteer battalions risks significantly aggravating tensions in the east of the country and undermining the proclaimed intentions of the new Ukrainian authorities to strengthen and uphold the rule of law more broadly.”

Its not just Ukraine amnesty international called out.


Are the lives of Ukrainians worth more than Syrian?

originally posted by: kitzik
But the specific question of this thread was to show that DPR claims are false.

The purpose of this thread was to show how the mindset of the rebel leaders worked. They apparently think they have not committed any "war crimes". Any investigation that delves into the actions of the rebels on this point could prove to be detrimental to Moscow; Especially if Russian soldiers were involved.

It also shows Russia's mindset in that they think they also have done nothing wrong.

I seriously doubt the DPR is interested in war crimes investigations. I think they are doing this in an effort to try and stop lethal weapons from being sent to Ukraine. It's not coincidental that they are just now making this particular type of statement. They are trying to paint a false picture of the west providing lethal aid to a government being accused of war crimes.


That's why I think the claim is BS.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I have already said that both sides are not angels.
Where did i said before that pro russian rebels are completely innocent ? Show me one instance of such claim from me and i will apologise
On the other hand I see your rhetorical question

Are the lives of Ukrainians worth more than Syrian?

as an attempt to thread drift and failure to admit that your original presentation of DPR claims is far from being objective.

I seriously doubt the DPR is interested in war crimes investigations.

I seriously doubt that this is true. On the opposite most of atrocities started because DPR and general Russian public is thinking that Odessa massacre wasn't investigated as it should be and this drove retaliatory mindset amongst simple miners in Donbass and also drew many supporters for DPR army from Russia.

originally posted by: kitzik
I have already said that both sides are not angels.
Where did i said before that pro russian rebels are completely innocent ? Show me one instance of such claim from me and i will apologise.

Where did I state that was your position?

originally posted by: kitzik
On the other hand I see your rhetorical question
as an attempt to thread drift and failure to admit that your original presentation of DPR claims is far from being objective.

At some point you guys really need to learn to not only read what others post but to actually understand the post. The question was asked because pro Russians bitch about the Ukraine governments actions towards the East while at the same time they ignore the very same scenario in Syria.

The question is valid because it deals with the mindset of people involved. It shows how a person's mindset can call out Kiev while remaining silent on Syria. If people are so concerned with war crimes then they must be concerned with all war crimes as opposed to the buffet style rationale of picking and choosing.

Finally I authored the thread and I introduced that specific example so if you want to reply its not that big of a deal and I wont consider it thread drift. in this particular debate comparing / contrasting with Syria could be helpful to some to see the other sides argument.

originally posted by: kitzik
I seriously doubt that this is true. On the opposite most of atrocities started because DPR and general Russian public is thinking that Odessa massacre wasn't investigated as it should be and this drove retaliatory mindset amongst simple miners in Donbass and also drew many supporters for DPR army from Russia.

I think it is true.. They waited this long and only when it became clear that lethal aid might be coming Ukraine's way did they pull this issue out and add it to the events.

I also find it impossible to believe that the rebels don't think they committed war crimes.

a reply to: Xcathdra

At some point you guys really need to learn to not only read what others post but to actually understand the post. The question was asked because pro Russians bitch about the Ukraine governments actions towards the East while at the same time they ignore the very same scenario in Syria.

The questions is valid because it deals with the mindset of people involved. It shows how a person's mindset can call out Kiev while remaining silent on Syria. If people are so concerned with war crimes then they must be concerned with all war crimes as opposed to the buffet style rationale of picking and choosing.

Finally I authored the thread and I introduced that specific example so if you want to reply its not that big of a deal and I wont consider it thread drift. in this particular debate comparing / contrasting with Syria could be helpful to some to see the other sides argument.

I don't understand at all what are you trying to say about Syria.

The questions is valid because it deals with the mindset of people involved.

You are making some assumptions about my mindset without showing what I think about Syria. My stances about Syria are complex, but you better make your assumptions more elaborate, I still don't know what "You think that I think" about this and how it is all linked to DPR ?

originally posted by: kitzik


I don't understand at all what are you trying to say about Syria.

People who accuse Kiev of war crimes ignore the war crimes committed in Syria. People complain about artillery being launched at rebel position in Ukraine where civilians are present yet they ignore it when its in Syria by Assad's government. People make passionate arguments about the Kiev government while accepting the situation in Syria.

It comes across not so much as caring for war crimes but what can we blame on the US today. It reminds me of Frances foreign policy during the cold war, which is to say their foreign policy was essentially the complete opposite of the US because it is the US. By opposite I mean France and the US shared common goals however because it was the US the counter position was taken.

Instead of dealing solely with the issues they ignore them and concentrate on the political level.

The Kiev government is bad because people claim they kill civilians and are supported by the west / US while at the same time they support the Assad government and their actions because the US is on the opposite of the Assad fence.

originally posted by: kitzik
You are making some assumptions about my mindset without showing what I think about Syria. My stances about Syria are complex, but you better make your assumptions more elaborate, I still don't know what "You think that I think" about this and how it is all linked to DPR ?

You need to re-read my post. nowhere did I state it was your mindset.

This is exactly what I am talking about.. Its like the comparison I made at the top..

Its not the information I post that people have issues with, the people have issues with me. instead of engaging the information people see a post of mine and engage me. I could have the exact same mindset as another person however because its me the person will take the opposing side at a personal level.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The question was asked because pro Russians bitch about the Ukraine governments actions towards the East while at the same time they ignore the very same scenario in Syria.

The question is valid because it deals with the mindset of people involved. It shows how a person's mindset can call out Kiev while remaining silent on Syria. If people are so concerned with war crimes then they must be concerned with all war crimes as opposed to the buffet style rationale of picking and choosing.

Please, can you stay on topic how you initially presented it
"This is another example of just how moronic the rebel leaders are.."
If from the beginning the purpose of your thread was to show how dishonest are some people with "specific mindset" about Ukraine and Syria I wouldn't be replying at all since I'm not one of the people with this mindset.

What you tried to say at the beginning is simply put " DPR leaders are morons because they are are blaming Kiev regime exactly in what they are guilty themselves They are morons because everyone knows that Kiev is innocent and only DPR is guilty, but they are morons because they don't understand even this"

Nothing was said about Syria etc.

In this example we are starting to build a world of information about sustainable health www.ugly.info/how-to-deal-with-stressthat you can navigate through yourself

a reply to: kitzik

and I stated that since I authored the thread and the direction of the topic that Syria comparisons were fine. If you cant keep up with both conversations you are more than welcome to stick to the just Russian topic. I completely understand how difficult it would be to state a position and then have it undermined, forcing a response to the question of -

Are you upset because of the situation and loss of life or are you upset based on which nation is involved and the position they take.

Your choice of course.

I'm afraid this conflict is littered with hypocrisy. On top of that, with both sides putting out disinfo, its hard to navigate the waters.

I can't believe Russia ever started sending weapons. I also can't believe we want to prolong this by sending weapons.

I know the arguments, and push come to shove, OK-send em. But there's gotta be another way.

Until we truly exhaust all diplomatic angles, we must keep trying.

My agenda is survival of my species. There's no reason all sides can't meet in the middle, and put an end to this nightmare.

If kiev has to force it's citizens by gunpoint to fight ,who's to say they WILL even with more firepower?
www.the-american-interest.com...
02varvara.wordpress.com...
sjlendman.blogspot.ca...
Pretty good barometer that the government is not representing the will of the people..

a reply to: Trihalo42

The rebels are right. Supplying weapons to Kiev and telling Russia to not send relief supplies like medicine, food, and diapers to people in rebel held areas is beyond hypocrisy.

But sending weapons and ammunition with those supposed supplies are okay...

Just as nobody is supposed to help Ukraine, but it is okay for RUssia to help the separatists...talk about hypocrisy.

a reply to: all2human

If kiev has to force it's citizens by gunpoint to fight ,who's to say they WILL even with more firepower?

Who's forcing anyone at gunpoint to fight?

So when Russia is making it's troops fight a war they aren't even supposedly involved in you think that's okay?

a reply to: stumason

I'd like to see the pro-Putin lot deny Russian involvement in this when it is clear they have been testing new weapons and tactics in Eastern Ukraine.

But, but, they got all their equipment from the Ukraine bases they took over in the beginning. You didn't know Ukraine has the ability to send weapons they don't even own, to a base that they don't control, only to have the separatists use them against the Ukrainians.

Man those Ukrainians are smooth to develop and send them to the separatists then blame Russia for the advanced systems the separatists have...genius I tell you, pure genius.

It's really getting harder and harder for the Pro Russian crew to deny the facts that RUssia is pushing this war farther and farther past a point of no return.