Big win for new age medicine fans and faith healers!

a reply to: muse7

Im sorry since when does "traditional" or "folk" medicine mean "sky god"

You do realize that a huge amount of modern medicines are derived from traditional remedies do you not?


They also said she died of a stroke.........a stroke...not the cancer......

Do you know for a fact that their "traditional" medicine caused her to have a stroke?

originally posted by: muse7

We have to draw a line somewhere.

We cannot let young children die as a result of their parent's iron age beliefs.

I understand your compassion, but it may be misplaced. Chemo-therapy can be more torturous than the cancer. I have seen it first hand. And frankly it's not our place to tell them what to do. This is a decision for the family not ours. It's easy to make a decision in a vacuum and pat yourself on the back when you don't have to witness the impact of that decision with your own eyes. I personally wouldn't go through chemo either.

Nice avatar by the way. I enjoy Muse and The Resistance is one of their best albums.

Edit: I saw your comment about your cousin going through chemo. Your experiences and others highlight that this is a highly personal decision.

The girl died of a stroke a year later. There is no evidence that the cancer caused her death in the quoted material. The Chemo was for cancer, so why is anyone even thinking that her death was related to refusing chemo? Chemo is very invasive, but in this case it put the girl far enough into remission that the cancer did not return. So their discontinuance was not the problem. Now I do not know what treatments they were giving her, some of those could have made her more susceptible to stroke. But I am sure she would have been in bad shape if she continued the Chemo also.

I have to stay neutral on this one because I do not have enough evidence or unbiased information to work with to make an opinion. It is the parents and girls right to seek ways to treat this. I won't be forced or bullied to take treatments that I can't tolerate. I spent five years in hell taking medicines I was definitely not tolerant to. It messed up my body, if they said I had to take these drugs again I would never do it. The doctor who prescribed them wrote down in my records that I can definitely not take these but the reason why was not known. I almost lost my feet, I lost all my teeth, my guts, liver, and kidneys took a hit. seven years later and I am still healing up from that bout. The doctor told me I would surely die if I kept doing this type of medicines and advised me not to take anymore from any doctor. She was a good doctor, she tried anyway and admitted she could not help me because of my reaction to all the meds.

So should I not have the right to refuse similar meds in the future?

Chemo is unpleasant but with current drugs the five year survival rate is something like 85% for most subtypes of Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia with a cure rate of 30% to 40% (and improving). What's the five year survival rate without treatment? I believe it's more like 0%.

All cancers are not the same people.

The decision shouldn't be in the hands of the children too young to make a reasonable opinion informed by a mature perspective or entirely in those of their parents — who could be delusional like these people — or those of politicians who aren't necessarily knowledgeable in any area aside from getting elected.

I'm all for adults refusing whatever they want for themselves. I'd support a reasoned, ethically sound decision to forego treatment for minors (or other people unable to decide for themselves) in cases where the prognosis with treatment is exceptionally poor and the quality of life was greatly diminished by the treatment. What I can't support is people making stupid life and death decisions for their children based on religious beliefs. It amazes me that so many people are soft on this!

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

They also said she died of a stroke.........a stroke...not the cancer......

I think it is very likely the Leukemia(cancer) killed her by causing a stroke it is pretty common.

Patients with malignancies and leukemia in particular are at risk to develop cerebral infarction. Several mechanisms may be responsible, alone or in combination, for stroke in this patient population. The major causes of stroke in cancer patients are listed below in Table 4.

Central Nervous system complications of Leukemia

this is a fair topic of discussion. but op, the subject matter has less to do with one's faith, than the freedom to live one's life. I thought as you did awhile ago. my own father dying of cancer made me realize that chemotherapy is an option. but one that is so painfully horrific that I would not believe I would want it. it is easy to blame someone for their decision making, in order to attack their belief system; especially if it doesn't correspond to our own. if a parent can no longer bear to watch their young child suffer through chemotherapy, I will not be the one to tell them they are wrong. it was so very hard to bury a father. I cannot imagine burying a child. your intent was to discredit religion. that is a fair discussion topic. but your manner of presenting and use of primary argument leaves much to be desired.

a reply to: theantediluvian

The decision shouldn't be in the hands of the children too young to make a reasonable opinion informed by a mature perspective or entirely in those of their parents — who could be delusional like these people

So youre for the right to take decisions with peoples children away from the parents......

You realize that slippery slope dont you?

Now if the parents are mentally unstable, I get that ......

How much more of a society do you want us to become where parents dont have the right to chose for their children, and the state gets to determine whats best?

1984 people.........1984

a reply to: Grimpachi

except we dont know that as fact.......

One can make any amount of assumptions.....but again how do we know the stroke wasnt caused by the weakening of her system due to the poison that is Chemo......

Chemo has caused many peoples systems to fail due to the weakened condition of the body

Listen to the little girl....

I have asked my mom and dad to take me off the treatment because I don't want to go this way anymore.
'I know that what I have can kill me, but I don't want to die in a hospital on chemo,' Mikayla said in the video

So it was doing this to her and she doesnt have a right ?

During the two weeks respite from chemo, Makayla's parents started her on a different form of treatment, which has left her feeling 'awesome,' she said.
'I wish that the doctors would listen to me, because I live in this body and they don't,' she added.

At least she was happy......and shes right, they dont live in her body

a reply to: theantediluvian

Well, if something goes wrong with the treatment from side effects, and the parents did not want it and the patient did not want it, then whoever seized power to approve this treatment should be liable and responsible for all costs of the treatment.

They should also be available for a lawsuit by the parents. This is the child of these people, not some medical professional or bureaucrat's child. Most doctors here in America would not choose the therapies they give for many diseases for themselves. So if most doctors would choose other options for themselves, why do people have to choose these invasive therapies as their only option. Most means over fifty percent, and I do not know how they would act on this specific disease.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

You're right we don't know and unlike you I didn't claim to know. Remember you claimed it wasn't the cancer but as you just admitted you don't know.

We do know from the links I posted that.

Patients with malignancies and leukemia in particular are at risk to develop cerebral infarction. (stroke)

And

McMaster oncologist testified at a hearing on a similar case of a First Nations girl refusing cancer treatment that Makayla had suffered a relapse. (the leukemia was back)

But sure you can have the opinion the chemo did it.

a reply to: Grimpachi

You're right we don't know and unlike you I didn't claim to know. Remember you claimed it wasn't the cancer but as you just admitted you don't know.

Wrong i didnt say it wasnt the cancer, I said they said it was a stroke that killed her......

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

a stroke...not the cancer

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sorry, you don't have dominion over medical decisions of the aboriginals. Your line means jack #.

Control freaks need to butt the out of other's decisions.

I will give the power to the person living in the body to choose always.

Laying hands/Reiki even meditation is a complement that might induce self healing thru the placebo effect but I do not see it as effective as some people with interest in the treatments say, at least not on the level that is practiced by those I have meet. But at least it will calm the person down and relieve some pain when they feel the vibrations and heat in their bodies.

Chemotherapy will do the opposite cause suffering since it is toxic to both cancer and body. And now days I hate how some doctors have become more like car salesman that have to sell and instead of following the creed of not causing suffering. Medical establishment give us a better treatment than chemotherapy. You have had enough time to find something. That the medical establishment haven't proves to me that money only matters not relieving suffering and making people's bodies healthy.

I don't think faith should ever be sold as a medical practice or thought of as a cure. To me, that's abuse. If people want to use natural methods of healing then by all means do it. If I have a decent amount of proof that these natural remedies work then I'm all for it. No parent wants their child to die. The thought of it makes me sick to my stomach. But she's old enough to decide. Kids are smart. Going through chemotherapy is torture hands down. It's insane the costs that are incurred in keeping someone alive. That's our monetary economy working hard for us.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

So youre for the right to take decisions with peoples children away from the parents......

You realize that slippery slope dont you?

Now if the parents are mentally unstable, I get that ......

How much more of a society do you want us to become where parents dont have the right to chose for their children, and the state gets to determine whats best?

We have laws to protect children from their parents and I'd bet you wouldn't argue against most of them. If these people had cut their daughter's head off because they believed their religion required it, how many people would be so quick to talk about a loss of parental rights? This isn't homeschooling or spanking we're talking about — it's life and death.

I honestly think that people aren't more outraged because a) the family is professing Christian faith and b) a general distrust of the medical profession. If it were parents who starved their child because they were members of some obscure cult, nobody would be rushing to defend their action (inaction).

originally posted by: muse7

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: muse7

This is very sad. I read about it yesterday and thought about posting it but didn't feel like dealing with the backlash hate that will be sure to come so brace yourself.

Here is another source with some info.

After Makayla said she had a vision of Jesus in the hospital, she wrote a letter to her doctors asking to stop treatment.

"I am writing this letter to tell you that this chemo is killing my body and I cannot take it anymore."

She left chemotherapy treatment while in remission to pursue alternative and traditional indigenous medicine.


The girl died Monday after suffering a stroke Sunday.

"Surrounded by the love and support of her family, her community and her nation … Makayla completed her course. She is now safely in the arms of Jesus," her family said in a statement published by the Two Row Times.

Although her family claims her death was due to chemotherapy, in September, a McMaster oncologist testified at a hearing on a similar case of a First Nations girl refusing cancer treatment that Makayla had suffered a relapse. The doctor also testified that there are no known cases of survival of this type of leukemia without a full course of chemotherapy treatment.

We have to draw a line somewhere.

We cannot let young children die as a result of their parent's iron age beliefs.

I know this isn't a subject that 'rational' thought plays much of a part. However, if we are to truly act on the principal of individual rights we have to allow parents to make this decisions for their children. It can never be a clear cut answer - mostly because parents are so intertwined with their offspring, but the parent's belief structure must be respected.

I wouldn't choose chemo and radiation for myself - I've seen the effects on those that are 'cured'.

The decision in a child's is (of course not in all cases) better left to the parents. The State doesn't have to live with consequences, real or imagined, of it's decision, the family does. I don't think I would put a child through that.

My husband and I discussed and decided that were our child to come early and need extensive life support that we would let them go. We'd read the literature on the long term effects, mostly psychological, of premature birth.

It didn't happen to us. I had a friend with a child that had leukemia. Over the years, repeated treatments, remissions and relapse, the child died. The effects on the family were devastating and continueing, the child in question never had any real life to speak of or friends. The mother confided in me after her daughters death at age seven, that she was happy it was over and she'd never do it again.

It's a personal choice (like many others I can mention) not one for The State, or The Church, or The Neighbor.

I think it's child abuse to have guns in a home with children, but it's not my decision to make for anyone but me.

originally posted by: pheonix358
I do not agree with Life at any price.

You are suggesting that years of Chemo, doing untold damage and causing unbearable pain is a win because the person may live.

What do you have against death. Why fight it so hard.

They have their beliefs. Their daughter is in heaven, pain free and happy.

Where is the down side.

Why fight death with such tenacity.

Their choice!

Thank fully, not yours.

P

I agree with your pointe.... Except we are talking about a child. A 60 year old adult and I'm with you. But a kid would have decades of life they were trading. Plus the kid didn't make this choice... The parents did....

My mother just died of melinoma last year. I moved home to help with the last 2 years worth of her treatment. So I watched the whole process up close. I understand your meaning. The last liver surgery that did not work completely robbed her of quality of life and prob a year of time. She was only 55... But a kid is different. A kid can't make the very adult choice to end it and a parent shouldn't either (I am a parent) . If the kid wins this fight, she gets another 70 years of life. Plus the far better medical tech the future will bring.

Parents who forgo modern medicine in favor of faith healing are nuts. It's christianities biggest black eye. I'm an atheist who enjoys the religion debate and it's my go-to point ALOT!

[ That said I think hanging that on all Christians is the same as hanging terrorism on all Muslims. There's no need to stoop to their level. Logic isn't on christianities side so no need to go there anyway. ] for the OP

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: muse7

This is very sad. I read about it yesterday and thought about posting it but didn't feel like dealing with the backlash hate that will be sure to come so brace yourself.

Here is another source with some info.

After Makayla said she had a vision of Jesus in the hospital, she wrote a letter to her doctors asking to stop treatment.

"I am writing this letter to tell you that this chemo is killing my body and I cannot take it anymore."

She left chemotherapy treatment while in remission to pursue alternative and traditional indigenous medicine.


The girl died Monday after suffering a stroke Sunday.

"Surrounded by the love and support of her family, her community and her nation … Makayla completed her course. She is now safely in the arms of Jesus," her family said in a statement published by the Two Row Times.

Although her family claims her death was due to chemotherapy, in September, a McMaster oncologist testified at a hearing on a similar case of a First Nations girl refusing cancer treatment that Makayla had suffered a relapse. The doctor also testified that there are no known cases of survival of this type of leukemia without a full course of chemotherapy treatment.

I thought her parents made the decision. If she made the decision for herself, it's her choice. After all, she was the one with the disease and she was the one suffering.