Saved by grace thru faith alone: What is a work?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Our works as believers only counts if it is done in the power of the Holy Spirit.

For what, special brownie points in heaven?
If we get to heaven, it will be just barely, and that is all the reward we should ever expect.

That means using 1 John 1:9 to confess your known sins privately to God the Father, as needed. Any "good" works done in a state of carnality are as dead as the work of a non-believer.

If we remain in the Holy Spirit, our works will reflect God's glory before the world.

What that lecture was on was how we live as Christians in a community of believers where God is working through the church to be worthy, and how this is like that way for a reason, that we stand together as a group of people in each other's sight where what we do is known, and when we are right with Jesus and each other, we are right with God.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Amen, any works done on our own without the Holy Spirit would be wood, stubble and hay.

Paul was talking about his founding of churches through his mission and preaching, and that it will show its ultimate value when they prevail through the testing that would come when he was gone.

a reply to: Bisman

But needing Faith in a god to receive anything at all, be it direct gifts, be helped, or even a have a positive feeling, defies the meaning of what Grace even is.

That we get anything at all was not based on our somehow deserving it, "as while yet we were sinners", God gave us . . .
That is grace, when none of us even had any faith yet.

a reply to: jmdewey60

That's true, but the application or spiritual lesson being taught is that things done with the wrong motive, or works done without the leading of the Holy Spirit won't be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ. Those works wont stand the testing fire. We need to not only make sure we are doing the right works, but also doing them with the right motive. To glorify Christ and to advance His Kingdom. It's all about Him and His glory. And in turn, we receive joy for doing them in this life and rewards in the next. But I assume those rewards we receive in the next will all be cast to Him. Those with nothing to cast at His feet will be quite embarrassed.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Faith is confidence in an object, power or entity. In this case, the object that we confide in is Christ. Our faith can and does inspire good work, but faith is NOT limited to the "influence of change".

Dead works are works that are not done through God's power. Since faith in Christ empowers us to work, those deeds are living works. For the athiest, confidence is in self, therefore the works take on the dead nature of the sinner. In the case of an agnostic, the confidence is in the works themselves, as an attempt to prove our worth to some distant god...yet the confidence is still in the subject's own ability.

I dont know how you can deny that Jesus died for our sins. It was foreshadowed in the OT, and repeated over and over again in the NT. To compartmentalize the Word of God the way you and others here do is madness.

The point is, that the works of the un-regenerated soul are illegal in God's eyes. First you must rest your confidence in Jesus' payment for our sin nature so that you can be born again. Once you are born again, then God can justify your works, IF they are done by the power of the Holy Spirit.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Actually your wrong. All the Gospels tell us Gods children can't live the way they are supposed thus our need for Jesus. Second, This interpretation verse 60-63 makes no sense...please point out where Jesus is telling them how to live....why dont you go back up and listen to Jesus reiterate the exact same points he's already made.

Jesus does not say that no one can ever live the way that they should.
We don't have Jesus to fall back on as somehow a way to make up for our failures.
What we do have is through Jesus, a pathway for God's spirit to come into us to enable us to overcome sin.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I agree we are saved by grace according to the whole Bible, but I just want to point out the title says saved by grace thru faith. The question I am addressing is how grace is obtained. Grace is obtained by simply trusting God and Christ(his Word made flesh).

"Saved" in the New Testament is the analog to the saving of Israel in the Old Testament, where instead, we now have the church. By grace, God allows us into it without having to keep all those things that the people in the Exodus story had to keep, we just need to believe in order to enter into this new community of "the saved'.

a reply to: jmdewey60

"Bownie points in heaven"....Do you really have to mock Christ like that? Jesus told us that those servants who serve Christ faithfully will inheret cities and blessings in eternity. Remember the Parable of the Talents?

1 John 1:9 was a direct order for Christians to confess their sins to God. The result of citing our sins is being cleansed of unrighteousness. We confess our sins because Christ made us a kingdom of Priests. Confession is a priestly function. Each individual believer in Christ is a priest who represents themselves to God, hence my title Believer-Priest.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Grace is forgiveness you don't deserve. Forgiveness however even between people is something that must be given and received.

Are you sure about that.
Grace, I think is the way that we as sinners, can receive this holy thing that is the spirit of God that will allow us to live a righteous life, which then enables God to forget about those things that we did before.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Look at my post count man, . . .

An awful lot of that comes from joke one-liners, and weird quips that are not even relevant, or this post where I got that line from here, something that adds nothing to the discussion.
All you are saying is that people get "that" wrong, and you know because you have seen it.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I would say conversion is the new birth, born again of the Holy Spirit as Jesus explained to Nicodemus. It's consequently the Holy Spirit that leads the new believer to do works to glorify Christ. Paul explains that it's the Spirit who wills us to do these works. I can't fathom how an unregenerate person who is spiritually dead willing on their own to do works to glorify Him.

Basically heading the call to God, and has more to do with pagans turning away from false gods.
A converted heart comes through repentance. This requires a change in lifestyle, with God's help.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

That's true, but the application or spiritual lesson being taught is that things done with the wrong motive, or works done without the leading of the Holy Spirit won't be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ. Those works wont stand the testing fire.

I don't know how you can agree when I am not saying anything like that.
Paul isn't talking about personal rewards, he is talking more of the judgment of history as to whether he built anything of value.

And in turn, we receive joy for doing them in this life and rewards in the next.

There is none, and you are just making that up, or repeating something that someone else made up and you thought sounded nice.
The reward that Paul talked about was to be resurrected, and he was not all that sure about even getting that.
Rewards after that is just some sort of fiction to avoid the hard fact that we need to deserve to be resurrected, and don't get it while living in sin and being all comfortable in it.

a reply to: jmdewey60

A converted heart comes through repentance. This requires a change in lifestyle, with God's help.

I don't agree with that. We are spiritually dead in our sins. The first step God does is open our spirit up to even be led by the Holy Spirit. Unregenerate unbelievers had no desire in their own flesh to do the will of God. Jesus' call to the 12 was first to conversion before He ever called them to discipleship. Sanctification shouldn't be confused with salvation/justification. Any book on systematic theology expresses this truth of scripture. Sanctification has a definite beginning at regeneration.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Our faith can and does inspire good work . . .

That is putting confidence in yourself, as it appears to me.
My faith make me do . . blah blah blah?
You need God. God can help you and that is better than just going with a confidence that if you feel happy, you will be acceptable because your heart is in it.

Since faith in Christ empowers us to work . . .

Those were examples of people in these old stories, where they supposedly did some OK things, but the fact is that now we have a higher standard than those simple things brought up, where we get a general idea from it and go onward, with a power that did not exist back then, but is available to us through the work of Jesus, to be actually good people, rather than people who did one or two good things in an otherwise frightfully evil sort of life.

I dont know how you can deny that Jesus died for our sins.

Dying for our sins (which the Bible does say) is not the same thing as saying that Jesus died to pay for our sins (which the Bible does not say).

It was foreshadowed in the OT, and repeated over and over again in the NT.

No one has yet demonstrated that convincingly to me from the Bible.

The point is, that the works of the un-regenerated soul are illegal in God's eyes. First you must rest your confidence in Jesus' payment for our sin nature so that you can be born again. Once you are born again, then God can justify your works, IF they are done by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You may have been taught that but is just someone's theory rather than an actual biblical teaching.

a reply to: jmdewey60

I don't know how you can agree when I am not saying anything like that.

I agree with what you said Paul was writing about. But also there was a spiritual truth being taught to all Christians by the Holy Spirit in that passage.

a reply to: jmdewey60

There is none, and you are just making that up, or repeating something that someone else made up and you thought sounded nice. The reward that Paul talked about was to be resurrected, and he was not all that sure about even getting that. Rewards after that is just some sort of fiction to avoid the hard fact that we need to deserve to be resurrected, and don't get it while living in sin and being all comfortable in it.

Im sorry, but what the hell are you talking about? Im really starting to believe that you are making this nonsense up as you go along. Jesus promised His believers resurrection...that was the basic reward for faith. From that point, the more faith-works you produce, the greater the reward.

I dont think you honestly believe what you are spouting. You are hiding from the truth that Christ revealed because the gospel offends the fallen nature of man. If you ever hope to see peace in the afterlife, you will realize that Jesus died for your sins, and that your passage into heaven is dependent on His works, not yours. As long as you hold your works higher than His, you are believing and spreading a false gospel.

a reply to: jmdewey60

There is none, and you are just making that up, or repeating something that someone else made up and you thought sounded nice.

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal." ~ Matthew 6:19-20

"10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." ~ 1 Cor. 3:10-15

a reply to: jmdewey60

Let me put it this way JM,

Somehow, you have convinced yourself that up really means down, and that down really means sideways. I dont know who has been teaching you these lies, but you need to wake up.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I have no clue either. The Word says every man will be resurrected, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting contempt.

"15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." ~ Acts 24:15

"28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." ~ John 5:28-29

"28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." ~ Matthew 10:28

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Its good to see that someone is making sense around here. Thanks for the verses.