Saved by grace thru faith alone: What is a work?

John 6
25 When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”


These men were seeking Jesus, and Jesus uses the analogy of food fulfilling hunger to what he does for a person spirit. Jesus is the one who will give you the bread (John 15:26, v27) and the Father will seal you as his for all eternity(Ephesians 1:12-13; v27).

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The work of God is to have faith in Christ. The words "believe" and "faith" come from the same same word in the Greek. If anything else was required to work the works of God Jesus was either lying or equivocating on a very important question...

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

The crowd the ask Jesus if the work of God is to believe in the one he has sent what work do you do so we may believe you? Then they reference Exodus 16 in verse 31. Moses gave the Israelites bread in the desert as proof that God delivered them from Israel.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jesus tells them the true bread of heaven is that with gives life unto the world and the men plead for the bread, and Jesus tells them he is that bread. Christ is the bread of life. He is what gives us spiritual knowledge.

James 2

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Now lets remember above I defined a work is having faith in Christ.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Now Abraham is before Christ was reveal so a work for OT people was to have faith in God. Does that stand in the verses above? Yes. Did Abraham do anything more than trust God when he went to offer Issac? Notice verse 23, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD.." and that is was what attributed righteousness to him and made Him a friend of God. Works are acts based on trust in God.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


The same that is said for Abraham can be said for Rahab.

It took no physical work for Rahab to recieve the messagers that was simply an dangerous act she preformed based on faith in God. Choosing to trust in Christ is the only work God requires. Christ is the root of all Good works because all good works are done with faith in Him in mind.

snorch 1: and he doth not read posts with nothing but bible verses, therefore he wont bother with said thread, but for this one comment.

snorch 2: and .. I did it all, I am god. Believe in me. or you will die in fires in hell, so be it. sinners. lol. seriously, signed god.

Those who reject the Bible do so not because it contradicts itself but because it contradicts them and the way that they want to live.

“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction” Proverbs 1:7

“Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions” Proverbs 18:2

a reply to: sn0rch

Then why read a thread that talks about salvation?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The seed is the awareness/understanding you gain while being posssessed by Jesus (by having his spirit in you).

Faith is believing the seed.

Work is replanting the seed.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

By having his spirit in you, you are then a child of God.

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

In the same sense that Christians follow the law by following the Spirit, children of God do work by having faith in the seed (the word they heard) - that is, if their faith is true, they will automatically replant it - they will do the work, just as they will follow the Law by following the Spirit.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
Those who reject the Bible do so not because it contradicts itself but because it contradicts them and the way that they want to live.

“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction” Proverbs 1:7

“Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions” Proverbs 18:2

It does contradict itself and people who believe not are from my point of view using faith in it not doing it to blind themselves.

James and Paul are not giving the same story and "people who have no interest in the bible as a whole being the only truth" will "see it" if they "seek" knowledge with critical logical thinking.

A person who do the work will sooner or later receive the spirit even if the person do not have and faith in religion. The highest will not lose a single soul when the soul already in spirit follows the teachings of the blessed ones (Jesus, Buddha, Nanak, Rumi). The highest do not think on small minded level like the name Jesus being a magical charm that automatically gives you a free pass. They know what is within and can see beyond words.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

James is NOT writing about the process of conversion, but the evidence of true conversion.

The New Testament relationship between Faith and works is that Faith comes first in order of time.
There is general agreement on that. It's in John, when he gives Faith the priority.
Ephesians talks about the believer as "created in Christ for good works, whcih God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them". (Ephesians ch2 v10)
Hebrews brings out the logical necessity of Faith coming before obedience (we have to believe that God is there before we can even want to obey him)- Hebrews ch11 v6
And James agrees with that when he offers to show his Faith by his works (ch2 v18). In other words, even in James, Faith comes first in order of time.
There is a consensus.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The work of GOD is to believe... That is HIS work that YOU believe... Not your own

Thus Faith is not Our work.... But God working

You need to keep reading that chapter...

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


IF It was Faith alone, he would not have needed to tell us how God wants us to live.... but all of the gospels cover the same thing... How God wants his children to live...

Not by Bread alone, but by every word that comes from God...

That means Faith is simply not enough...

IF one believes in Jesus... they do as he asked...

and he wanted more then just belief... because faith without works is nothing but words with no action

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The New Testament relationship between Faith and works is that Faith comes first in order of time.
There is general agreement on that. It's in John, when he gives Faith the priority.
Ephesians talks about the believer as "created in Christ for good works, whcih God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them". (Ephesians ch2 v10)
Hebrews brings out the logical necessity of Faith coming before obedience (we have to believe that God is there before we can even want to obey him)- Hebrews ch11 v6
And James agrees with that when he offers to show his Faith by his works (ch2 v18). In other words, even in James, Faith comes first in order of time.
There is a consensus.

You can be an atheist and still follow the golden rule and thereby not miss the mark in the eyes of the highest. You do not have to believe in the highest to follow the golden path. There can be other justification than fear for doing the right thing. Fear is normally a very bad motivator and do not bring symbiosis but disconnection between 2 parts where one fear the other.

Nakak said: Men and women, he said, should not fear God's anger but be afraid of not receiving all the benefits of his love.

The Pope seem to agree with me and even give quotes from Jesus.
www.catholic.org...

Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!

"They complain," Francis said, "If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good." He explained that Jesus corrected them, "Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good."

The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."

"Even them, everyone, we all have the duty to do good, Pope Francis said on Vatican Radio.

"Just do good" was his challenge, "and we'll find a meeting point."

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
Nakak said: Men and women, he said, should not fear God's anger but be afraid of not receiving all the benefits of his love.

Where did I say anything about fear? I said Faith, which means trust.
Hoping to "receive all the benefits of his love" involves trusting that his love has benefits.

Paul never wrote you are "saved" BY faith or works.....he said by grace(the power of the creator God which is the anointing..christ) and then explains how NOT by your faith or works but by what God has done.

The fact is ALL of mankind WILL be (future )delivered/ saved from Hades (the realm of death and imperception) but none HAVE been saved yet.None can do ANYTHING to be saved because it is futile.Every person that will ever live will die and BE dead.Every person that has ever lived has been in the realm of imperception (their Belief System religion) and does not "know" the Truth of reality at all.Nothing anyone can do or believe will save/deliver them from Hades those are religious doctrines of men of belief of a wacked out "God" they have made in their own image.None can or will ever do what Yahoshua said ...

Why are you calling me, 'My Lord, my Lord'', and yet you are not doing whatever I say?”

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of gehenna).
“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you,leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.Truly I say to you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.But I say to you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’But I say to you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’But I say to you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles,Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?Be mature, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
Nakak said: Men and women, he said, should not fear God's anger but be afraid of not receiving all the benefits of his love.

Where did I say anything about fear? I said Faith, which means trust.
Hoping to "receive all the benefits of his love" involves trusting that his love has benefits.

Hebrews brings out the logical necessity of Faith coming before obedience (we have to believe that God is there before we can even want to obey him)- Hebrews ch11 v6

I would think that above quote is in a way fear based. And to point it out I do not equal religion with the highest objective truth so I am logically weighting the fruits of every religious idea to see if it comes from a good tree.

I thank the highest for that ability that was evolved to be my guidance on this level of awareness.

Namaste

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Taking the name of Christ is taking his character, which is suffering for others. Two kinds of suffering. One suffering we receive by taking. For a simple example, taking drugs leads to addiction. Not only does the person taking the drug suffer, but so does his family. Flipping this, a person that suffers on purpose gleans reward. Going to the gym brings more health. Suffering a job brings a paycheck. Suffering to do without selfish desires leaves money in the bank for the family.

Taking Reward ---------> Suffering (Giving) -----------> True Reward

Works are any activity, including study of scriptures, that plant seeds into the Homer (basket of seed). The word Homer / Cor in Hebrew means 10 bushel basket. Heart in Hebrew is the same word used in German for Hart (young stag). In Latin, the heart is the Cor, also part of the German word Herzcor. The same word in Hebrew for Heart literally means the basket for grain, or heart.

In English, the ear is a seed, like ear of corn. Adding the letter Hey to ear makes Hear.



Adding a Tav to Hear makes Heart, or the soil for the seed. Seeds need to open to grow. Tav is the plowman's mark used to direct the ox pulling the cart / blade to clear a path for soil and remove stones.



Move the Hey to the end of Heart and you have the place you behold, or eartH.

The reason Jesus used the parables of seed is simple. Aleph Bet is the word Father. Letters are used to fill the mother's cup (womb). "In the beginning was the WORD (written with letters / Father). When letters of the Father enter the cup, the Son is born. Aleph (strong) Mem (water) is the word mother. The word Son is Bet (House) Nun (Seed). Bread is made from seed that was gathered in the basket. Jesus is the bread of life, or Son carrying the seed. He is Adam and so are you and I in this world.

This brings us back to the harvest. The land owner required the Sons to be under a guardian before inheriting the land. They were required to be slaves working the land. Boaz was a Guardian Redeemer. When Ruth was gleaning seed in the field, she found the Redeemer. Love between the two was based on Ruth's need, but also that of Boaz desiring Ruth. The field is where the two became one, but Ruth uncovered the feet (genitals / seed) of Boaz on the threshing floor so to speak. What do you do with seed on a threshing floor? You free them from the chaff.

When the harvest comes for souls, it is a process to remove the soul from the body. The chaff (body) is then burned. The soul is then joined to the groom, or Angel above. We each have a higher nature above (subconscious) leading the body (female / consciousness) below. The two are divided by Yahweh (Eve taken from Adam).

The process is to refine the weaker of the two as a person in the water (baptism) on an ark (earth). We are here to work under a guardian.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The point is to fill the basket, then find faith from the heart and love of the Guardian Redeemer.

Involution and evolution is a process to sink into the earth as a seed, swell open, the free the essence into the soil, water and sunlight to produce more fruit. Once you produce fruit, you have done your work. Planting seed in others is then suffering to see the reward expanded.

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Our guardian is the personification of our higher mind (Yahweh) and the accuser (Satan) as the lower mind, or conscience.

The Son is the groom (Angel) that awaits above for the child to be trained in the process.

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

The judge is cast out of Heaven. Yahweh is self-rightoues and accuses / destroys others. Satan is the accuser / adversary that judges others. Silence the accuser. Overcome the adversary. Higher and lower mind make the person suffering for reward or suffering because of taking reward. Thieves and saints. The true work is to suffer on purpose.

Judge not. Simply work the land or glean behind those who do.

Saved by grace thru faith alone? Not according to scripture. well ... scripture contradicts itself .. but here are some verses that say work & faith are needed -


James 2:24 reads, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Psalm 62:12 For you render to each one according to his works.

Jeremiah 17:10 I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ezekiel 18:27, 30 When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. (V.27) I will judge you ... every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. (v.30)

Matthew 5:20 Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 19:17 If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Philippians 2:12 Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:17 The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

Revelation 2:23 I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.

Luke 6
46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like.

Jesus says that you must do what he says, which is love others as yourself and do good to them.

Matthew 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

According to Jesus you must forgive others in order to be forgiven, not a sacrifice on a cross. "Forgive others sins and your Father will forgive your sins". This flies in the face of Jesus' so-called sacrifice on the cross.

Mark 12
32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Loving others and forgiving them is all that is required and is more important than ANY sacrifice. Jesus knew he was going to be "sacrificed" so why didn't he correct the man instead of agreeing with him?

Good works are required in the true Spirit of Jesus' words, he emphasized this throughout his teachings and said to follow and "do" them over and over. When you forgive and love others good works come forth.

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Good works are required according to Jesus.

People are still confusing salvation with sanctification and service. No one says a saved person should not show any evidence of that conversion . Good works follow a true conversion.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Faith is the ladder or doorway to GOD. Grace is the hand of GOD reaching you. Works are what we do to help eachother because we remember that long winter nite we spent laying in the ditch on the side of the road as people drove by and pointed.

a reply to: Akragon

You are of the opinion that the individual's work matters. It doesnt. The work of God is our faith. At the point of faith in Christ (the one He sent), we are in union with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit....so the works that believers produce from faith are really God's work through us.

Faith is the beginning of works. If you work without faith, your work is as dead as your faith. Who should we have faith in? The only begotten Son of God who was sent to die for our sins.

You cant deny that Jesus' Father provided the manna to the OT exodus crowd, therefore you cant deny that Jesus is the bread of life sent by His Father.

He is the Lamb that removes sin from the world. If you reject His payment for sins, your works are illegal in God's eyes.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Well, I would clarify that it doesn't matter for our justification, but it does matter in glorifying the Lord, helping our fellow man, and trying to be Christ for others. We may be the only impression of Jesus someone may ever see. So in that instance works are huge.