Cleveland police officer shot Tamir Rice immediately after leaving moving patrol car

a reply to: TKDRL

No offence intended to any Americans here, but why cant Police Officers shoot to wound the assailant rather than kill them outright ? I know about the right to bear arms and that's fine, but a bit of self control might be needed in the US Police Forces i think.
You hear this sort of story all the time coming out of the US and in my mind a shot to the arm, shoulder,leg etc surely is better than killing outright ?
Reminds me of that saying......"shoot first and ask questions later".
I can imagine the uproar here in the UK if a similar event happened, but there again, only special squads can bear arms in the UK.
Shooting to kill should ALWAYS be the last resort.....not the first.

originally posted by: CJPXS

No offence intended to any Americans here, but why cant Police Officers shoot to wound the assailant rather than kill them outright ? I know about the right to bear arms and that's fine, but a bit of self control might be needed in the US Police Forces i think.

This is asked a lot. The answer is this is not the movies where a person can shoot someone in the arm or leg and end the situation. A gun is deadly force, nothing less. You would be surprised at how many misses one has, even highly train, when aiming for the largest part of the body and not something like an arm. Finally, in America you can't use a gun unless you are in-fear of your life, or someone else's life, or trying to stop a felony that could result in injury/death of others. If you aim for an arm then the court would have a field day with that, suggesting that your use of a gun did not meet the minimum requirements to actually use it.

Shooting to kill should ALWAYS be the last resort.....not the first.

Shooting period should be last resort...

This scenario is becoming somewhat common, where a cop goes to deadly force without really understanding the situation, or really giving much time to use other means. We citizens do not know cop procedures and we are not use to having someone yelling orders at us out of the blue. We typically see people go into a confused state for as moment as their brain tries to digest the situation, but today that is way too long and the cop fires before one can hardly react.

In this case, they could have pulled up 30 feet more away ordered the kid on the ground, and spend more than 2 seconds trying to get him to comply. Cops also need to understand (and I'm sure they do) that there are millions of air soft guns out there and to instantly assume that a person has a real gun "instantly" and then use deadly force is a load of crap even when the person has not done nothing but wave the toy gun around.

We saw this with the guy at Wal-Mart that picked up an Air Soft gun IN THE STORE and stood in one spot with it talking on his phone the whole time. Cops came in, he barely flinched and died within a couple of seconds.

Many of you are not old enough to have lived in the 80s 70s 60s and really do not know that back then a cop didn't fire until the suspect fired first or the cop(s) spent a enormous amount of time trying to get the person to comply.

a reply to: Jakal26

I do my damdest not to label people. But I still find myself doing so at times. But I still won't call all LEOs "Pigs", nor will I call all Muslims, "Muzzies", Gypsies, "Pikers" Blacks, "The N-word"...T&C forbids, Italians, WOPs...etc, etc.

I have a feeling that you don't like LEOs because of a personal interaction with one or two where you were in the wrong, (In the eyes of the law) and regardless of how you feel, they too have a job to do.

BTW, I hate corrupt cops as much as the next guy. They have no place in a civilized society.

originally posted by: TDawgRex


BTW, I hate corrupt cops as much as the next guy. They have no place in a civilized society.

But the whole LE system is corrupted when the good cops that know of brutality and corruption adhere to the "Blue Code"

en.wikipedia.org...

And internal affairs is just an extension of the "Blue Code" and covers up for the officers misconduct.

Why should any officer be responsible when he knows he is protected by official internal departmental corruption?

Btw, I work part time for a contractor tasked with LEO training. I know how the system works.

The only time things change is when the Feds are called in and local depts. can lose federal/State/county appropriations and grants. As in all things....
Money talks!

a reply to: olaru12

I'm familiar with the "Blue Code", and feel for the IA guys as they are the true black sheep of the force. But my real problem with LEOs is the Police Unions who will go through great lengths to keep bad cops on the force.

a reply to: Xtrozero
Yeah I don't understand the stupid people training these "cowboy" tactics. Around 1988, my neighbor flipped his lid and was shooting off his shotgun in the air, raving like a madman. The cops didn't come and kill him in 2 seconds like cops today would have, they talked the guy down for over an hour and got him to surrender. There must either be a huge difference in training, or they are just letting way more idiots on the force. Maybe a combo of the two. All I know, is cops are now cowards, when they used to be not only tough as nails, but had brains and used them to boot.

originally posted by: TKDRL
a reply to: Xtrozero
Yeah I don't understand the stupid people training these "cowboy" tactics. Around 1988, my neighbor flipped his lid and was shooting off his shotgun in the air, raving like a madman. The cops didn't come and kill him in 2 seconds like cops today would have, they talked the guy down for over an hour and got him to surrender. There must either be a huge difference in training, or they are just letting way more idiots on the force. Maybe a combo of the two. All I know, is cops are now cowards, when they used to be not only tough as nails, but had brains and used them to boot.

I think it is a combination of training, lack of numbers and just an attitude that what ever they say must be complied with instantly, or extreme countermeasures are executed. In this case if the officers actually had a little distance and actually talked to the kid first they would have quickly found out that he had a toy gun.

Let me ask the posters here a question...

Is walking around with a toy gun illegal in anyway? Did the kid break a single law in his actions?

Yah sure, what the hell… just blaze away. Ferguson proved there is no accountability.

a reply to: CJPXS
Shooting is supposed to be the last resort. Shooting a leg is not only a bad idea because you can miss and hit a bystander, it is also a bad idea because it's not any less lethal. You will sever a major artery with a shot to the thigh.

The cop here should go to prison, if a civilian pulled anything like what that cop did, they would be indicted and more than likely convicted. Cops need to be held to a higher standard than civilians, as they hold power and receive training training that most do not.

It has been reported that the responding officers waited 4 mins before summoning help..WHY? I challenge someone to count to 240..its a long time to do nothing after shooting a child.

a reply to: vonclod
My guess? The officers were trying to get "their story straight" first.

a reply to: TKDRL
Hard to imagine any other reason I hate to say it. Maybee our LEO member will explain it. When I hear how distraught the officers are thats the nagging question in the back of my mind.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

We saw this with the guy at Wal-Mart that picked up an Air Soft gun IN THE STORE and stood in one spot with it talking on his phone the whole time. Cops came in, he barely flinched and died within a couple of seconds.

yeah, he stood in one spot the whole time
after he walked around the damn store

just saying

a reply to: Grovit
Irrelevant to the point he was making.
He was standing there doing nothing but talking on his phone when the cowboys barged in and shot him dead.
Just saying.

a reply to: TKDRL

i can live with that

a reply to: Grovit
Sorry, was a bit snippy. Should go to bed before I type more grumpy snippyness.

a reply to: TKDRL

no worries man...
its all good.
im snippy all the time

originally posted by: Grovit


yeah, he stood in one spot the whole time
after he walked around the damn store

just saying

He did a little bit, but he stood in the back there an extremely long time not threatening anyone and died in the same spot doing nothing other than jerking out of surprise...


Just saying...

Some interesting developments.

Three experts in police procedures find fault with the Cleveland police officers involved in the Nov. 22 fatal shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice for pulling their cruiser so close to someone whom they believed was armed.

The experts, contacted Tuesday by Northeast Ohio Media Group, each concluded from viewing surveillance video of the shooting that the officers should have maintained a greater distance between their cruiser and Tamir.

"The tactics were very poor," said David Thomas, senior research fellow for the Police Foundation. "If the driver would have stopped a distance away so that the primary officer wasn't right there to get involved in shooting, it may have played out differently."

So we've got procedure experts expressing the same concern regarding the approach these officers made to the scene. The approach has never seemed right from a tactical point of view nor a logical point of view. We're always hearing that police must assume all guns are real. Okay, then why would any officer place themselves or their partner directly in the line of fire with this close of an approach to an armed individual?

Experts also expressed concern about whether Loehmann followed protocol for verbally commanding Tamir to drop his weapon.

Police said at a press conference that Loehmann called out for Tamir three times to drop his gun before he opened fire. However, the video shows Loehmann firing his gun within seconds of coming into contact with Tamir, and Williams said it looks like no verbal commands were given.

And they are apparently even questioning whether any commands were even given prior to shooting. This seems to be a big problem for the police involved. Nobody can comply with commands that aren't given.

As far as the commands go I'm having a hard time comprehending something. The officer who shot this kid says he shot because he was reaching for the gun which was in the waistband of his pants. He also says he commanded (though maybe not) this kid to drop the gun 3 times. So here is my problem. How does someone drop a gun from their waistband without reaching for it?

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