Ferguson. Reflection and thoughts. Read at your own risk :)

My wife is afraid of snakes. She will handle a garter snake or black snake outside for their own safety, but will not abide by one in the house.

My six year old daughter, well, I was very concerned she would learn the same fear.

I took her to an exotic pet shop, to attempt to rid her of her fear before it took hold, through learning. I told her she would not be made to do anything she didn't want to do other than go to the shop with me
By the time we left, she was thrilled. She had a ball python on her shoulder, and roaming up her head through her hair, and was smiling brightly the hole time. She asked why we couldn't take one home and
I explained that if we did, her mother would immediately divorce me.

I believe some fears, like that of snakes, are almost certainly learned and possibly inherited genetically.

www.sciencenews.org...

I have known just as many people of color as others within my short time here on earth. All of 45 years. I've realized for quite some time, many people of color (mostly african-american) are quite simply
afraid of dogs. Particularly german shephards. Some of them embraced dogs, particularly pitbulls, through a societal perception of enhanced security as well as offensive ability / toughness. When I asked,
many of these folks described how rather often, particularly 50 or so years ago, the police would utlilize dogs, mainly german shephads. German shephards were utilized in Abu-Graib for their potential and
known creater of fear through their ferocity. This was almost always sited as the reason for "black" folks having a deep fear of most dogs, german shephards in particular. Rather often, these same people readily
stated they were taught to fear these canines through learning and example of the fear by their older family members. Taught mistrust. I know from experience that many "white" people are taught, directly or indirectly
to mistrust "black" people. Taught, intentionally or not, to believe they are culturally backwards compared to the "whites". "Black" people are not as intelligent as others, and are prone to violence.

Ferguson. It has brought on a "racial" divide. I hate the term "racial" or "race". An Us vs. Them mentality. "Why would you attack a person known to carry a firearm?" "Police deserve the mistrust because
of their history of elevated arrests, convictions, and violence against us." "Why would anyone do this to their own city, you know these communities are violent, by why?" "Racism is systemic within our society."

Here is a bullet point, and hopefully succinct statement of my views, as a native born person from St. Louis. Both pro and con. Both against and in support of both sides. I believe in middle ground, mutual acquiescence
and compromise. I tend to believe from observation that extreme viewpoints are skewed.

- Michael Brown probably is not as innocent as many would want him to be
- Officer Darren Wilson is probably not as innocent as many would want him to be
- I believe the violence and rioting, although wrongly vented through non Michael Brown anger, was not the right way to go. It truly only hurts their own communities.
- I believe that a LEO, and a keeper of the peace should be trained to act in a means that shows a strong propensity for a show and statistical historical actions of restraint.

Now, a bit about me. Hopefully this explains my radical viewpoint of belief in a balance.

- I have learned through experience and maturity that people have the propensity for being decent, citizens and LEOs alike.
- I was raised to believe that a persons actions are to be judged. Not their color, creed, or beliefs.
- Mostly all of my family live in the St. Louis area. A good number of them do fit the common definition of "racist".
- A number of my family members have been part of the KKK. My Father intentionally moved us out of MO for that very reason.
- I am neither conservative nor liberal. I see ideas of merit on both sides. I do not see either side as being "right".
- I believe people have the capacity to grow and change. For better of for worse.
- I believe that in most cases, stereotypes do have at least some footing in reality / past experiences.
- I believe that stereotypes are often overblown entirely out of reality.
- I believe that "racism" comes from all colors, creeds, and paradigms of thought.
- Although later taught actions are what is to be judged, I still find myself having to balance thoughts that sometimes immediately come to mind based entirely off of stereotypes. Positive and negative ones.


Thoughts specifically regarding Ferguson.

- Even though violence inevitably hurts themselves, a victim mentality has arisen through learned mistrust of the police, and "white" people. This is quite possibly brought on through genetic memory, and boosted
through learned beliefs.
- The police in this situation did not act in a means that helped the situation. Announcement of the lack of indictment at night. Military officials have stated that through their experience in similar situations this is
an ill advised approach.
- Our society needs to shake of the weight and oppression of self imposed weight of racism and mistrust. I believe this is true of the World at large.
- I believe there is a time for obedience of the law. I also believe there is a time for action, sometimes violent.
- I have spoken to quite a few people on both sides since the night of the Grand Jury's announcement. From "black" people that believe both in the correct and incorrect actions of the events that caused this and have
unfolded since. I have also spoken to a number of LEOs and Military personnel, who share similar convictions of right and wrong in this situation.
- My views have vacillated, and are still a wee bit topsy turvy.
- Very very few people experienced the events and therefore know what actually happened that day. Particularly with regards to the Prosecutor / Jurors as well as those that rioted and committed crimes and acts of violence.
- I hope that we as Americans will learn lessons from this chain reaction of events. I also hope that we as a nation will rise from our stagnance of society and utter complacence to do what is necessary to change their very own
society. Both peacefully, and if necessary, violently.
- I hope that should either of the above happen, LEOs and the Military will think for themselves and not simply behave as automatons with an order.
- I happen to believe that our system is broken, antediluvian, and in need of systemic change.

CONTINUED (Conclusion and Summary) -

a reply to: nullafides




Conclusion and summary of my thoughts

- We need to change our paradigm of thought and actions as a result of that paradigm.
- This will be costly and painful. Not necessarily because of violence, but because of discovery and rocking the foundation of belief and viewpoints.
- People are afraid of and dislike change. I too am a creature of inertia, and fall into this category. But I see it as a necessary thing.
- The learned and possibly genetic memory of past experiences is largely the impetus for these events. I believe these causes extend and have been ingrained by issues and behavior that have their origins sometimes rather far
into the past and our combined history.


Please feel free to engage me in discussion on these views, as I understand the difference from much of the mainstream and what I present to you now. I truly hope that my offering this up causes people to think over what
has happened.

I will openly and diligently strive to answer with thought of the presented viewpoint that may not coincide with my own. I will also look to be honest and challenge my own beliefs from the viewpoints and beliefs I have
genuinely asked to be confronted with.

I do not expect to change or convert anyone. Nor is that my intent.

My intent is purely to induce reflection and thought. I thoroughly realise that much of this discussion is fuelled by emotional response. I understand the reasons behind this and accept it.


Thank you for your time.



NF

- Michael Brown probably is not as innocent as many would want him to be
- Officer Darren Wilson is probably not as innocent as many would want him to be

Thats why trials in open court are used as a tool of "justice". To get to the bottom of it , bring it all out in the open for everyone to see what the evidence is, cross examine everyone and everything to reach a verdict so the case can be closed.

Otherwise we have what we all see, more of the same. If they would just go to Public trial in Open court, everyone would have an equal, impartial and fair chance at determining what really happened.

Just issuing statements that discard or back certain evidence to the exclusion of all the evidence is injustice. It shows how things are really done there in Ferguson, (behind secret doors) and only exacerbates the problem the people are protesting about. Michael Brown is only a symptom of a much deeper, underlying disease.

Nullafides, I think you wrote a very well thought out piece. You put a lot of thought into what was written. I agree with everything you stated, except for one thing. You stated, "I believe there is a time for obedience of the law. I also believe there is a time for action, sometimes violent".

Obedience of the law is required at all time. If not lawlessness takes over and another Ferguson takes over. That is not good for anyone. There is a proper time for proper action. But never is there a proper time for violence. Violence only leads to lawlessness.

The riots where and are completely wrong when they are violent in nature as we have seen in Ferguson. Peaceful protest is correct when it comes to disagreement with a action taken by others. The grand jury in this case was presented with everything that could be presented from both sides of the issue. They made a decision based on evidence presented to them. Facts are what is required. Emotions, and hear say can never be used to determiner the truth of the matter.

I for one would like to have seen more National Guard presents the first night. This would have prevented much loss of business, and harm to a neighborhood. The thugs that did all the damage should be jailed. They only hurt themselves and their neighbors. That is just plain stupid, and no forethought was given to the consequences of their actions.

a reply to: nullafides
Our American Dream is just that. A dream. For some it is an illusion that was handed down from generation to generation that we were living in some kind of faeryland where candies hang from trees and mountain rivers flow with wine. To others it has been a promise of challenge, of hard work with appropriate fulfillment. Both these are now being exposed for what they really are. Day by day, people of both beliefs are finding that the blanket truths they have held to are not as universal as they had assumed. And few are happy with the new reality, rather, the true reality that is emerging.

It is my belief that calm heads, such as you have demonstrated in your op, is what it will take to guide us through the inevitable awakening to reality. Thank you for your thoughts.

a reply to: Ceeker63

With all do respect, did you miss my statement early on in the first part of the post that reads....

"- I believe the violence and rioting, although wrongly vented through non Michael Brown anger, was not the right way to go. It truly only hurts their own communities. "

With regards to at all times abiding by the law, I thoroughly disagree. I'm certain some will perceive this as a tried and and tired response, but....

Weren't the founding fathers of America disobeying the rule of law when they defied the King and country of England ?

I believe they were. I believe there is a time for civil disobedience. I also believe that in this term, the word "civil" is misread as being "polite", conforming to law, or peaceful. While preferable, there is a time where negotiations or peace simply no longer works. It must be heavily scrutinized when considering this. However, there is still a time and point where it is the last and only option for change and or freedom.


Thank you for your response


NF

originally posted by: intrptr

- Michael Brown probably is not as innocent as many would want him to be
- Officer Darren Wilson is probably not as innocent as many would want him to be

Thats why trials in open court are used as a tool of "justice". To get to the bottom of it , bring it all out in the open for everyone to see what the evidence is, cross examine everyone and everything to reach a verdict so the case can be closed.

Otherwise we have what we all see, more of the same. If they would just go to Public trial in Open court, everyone would have an equal, impartial and fair chance at determining what really happened.

Just issuing statements that discard or back certain evidence to the exclusion of all the evidence is injustice. It shows how things are really done there in Ferguson, (behind secret doors) and only exacerbates the problem the people are protesting about. Michael Brown is only a symptom of a much deeper, underlying disease.

I am not categorically disagreeing with you because of my original statement. I read and considered your position. But, I still believe my view of...

"- I happen to believe that our system is broken, antediluvian, and in need of systemic change. "

is the reality in which we live in. I wish I could say differently. I was raised to be honest, to respect authority, and to live in society. Society is largely defined and scoped by it's laws. I have blatantly become disillusioned and jaded by seeing situations and events time after time that I find convincing of the idea that we are simply in need of vast change. Laws are made by those with the money to back it. Not even simply old white men, as they are pulled by the strings of corporations, private interests, and the desire for power.

I hope you understand that my response is not meant to attack yours. And I thank you for reading through my long winded statement


NF

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: nullafides
Our American Dream is just that. A dream. For some it is an illusion that was handed down from generation to generation that we were living in some kind of faeryland where candies hang from trees and mountain rivers flow with wine. To others it has been a promise of challenge, of hard work with appropriate fulfillment. Both these are now being exposed for what they really are. Day by day, people of both beliefs are finding that the blanket truths they have held to are not as universal as they had assumed. And few are happy with the new reality, rather, the true reality that is emerging.

It is my belief that calm heads, such as you have demonstrated in your op, is what it will take to guide us through the inevitable awakening to reality. Thank you for your thoughts.

I've truly felt this about America for some time. As corny as it may seem, I often find myself referring to song lyrics such as those written by Neil Peart, like this one....

"Illusions are painfully shattered, right where discovery starts, in the deepest wells of devotion, that lay deep in our hearts....Feelings run high...."


NF

a reply to: nullafides

I agree with everything you just said. I am also "jaded" and disillusioned with the way things are. Difference today for me is I can actually say something about it. Used to be all media news was one way from TV, newspapers and radio. If I wanted to comment I could talk to people at work or in friend circles. I like this approach much better.Thanks for letting me share.

Keep telling it like it is…

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: nullafides

I agree with everything you just said. I am also "jaded" and disillusioned with the way things are. Difference today for me is I can actually say something about it. Used to be all media news was one way from TV, newspapers and radio. If I wanted to comment I could talk to people at work or in friend circles. I like this approach much better.Thanks for letting me share.

Keep telling it like it is…

Hey bud, thank you

Unfortunately, being a 25 year IT veteran, I have to say that the Gov't or many other powers are perfectly capable of restricting communication via all methods other than word of mouth. Just look at the middle eastern countries who disabled Blackberry communication. Who blocked facebook and twitter. These are only a few examples of the control.

Our reality, however, is that OUR PTB can actually bring the entire Internet to a screeching halt. Our voices would be unheard at that point.

That and many other facets of reality are the crucible of my opinion.




NF

a reply to: nullafides I did see your statement about " I believe the violence and rioting, although wrongly vented through non Michael Brown anger, was not the right way to go. It truly only hurts their own communities". I agree with you about are founding fathers and what they did. However, what they did was not against their own community. They did not riot in the streets of Plymouth, or Boston. They simply engaged the British and beat them back, until they left the colonies. What are founding fathers did was war not a riot in the streets because someone was shot by a police officer. I am sure there was civil disobedience during the revolutionary time. But I do not recall reading about anyone burning their own neighborhood, and businesses because they did not like a court ruling. The thugs in Ferguson that burned and destroyed property are simply law breakers and should be treated as such.

originally posted by: Ceeker63
a reply to: nullafides I did see your statement about " I believe the violence and rioting, although wrongly vented through non Michael Brown anger, was not the right way to go. It truly only hurts their own communities". I agree with you about are founding fathers and what they did. However, what they did was not against their own community. They did not riot in the streets of Plymouth, or Boston. They simply engaged the British and beat them back, until they left the colonies. What are founding fathers did was war not a riot in the streets because someone was shot by a police officer. I am sure there was civil disobedience during the revolutionary time. But I do not recall reading about anyone burning their own neighborhood, and businesses because they did not like a court ruling. The thugs in Ferguson that burned and destroyed property are simply law breakers and should be treated as such.

I think we're trying to say the same thing.

We are both saying that the intent and result of the rioting and looting Monday night was wrong. That it was the actions of people who either didn't care, wanted to do wanton damage to their own community, or just wanted a case of transmission fluid from O'Reilly Automotive Supply....

It was sad to see this.


They should be caught and made to face the penalties to their actions.



NF

a reply to: nullafides

I don't really have much to add to your thread, except that I am scared to death of spiders - I sure as heck didn't learn it from my folks who just squish huntsmans with a bare hand. My daughter however thankfully didn't get my arachnophobia, but she hates snakes. So I've made the deal that she removes all spiders, and if we ever get a snake, I'll deal with it. (Thankfully in my 38 years I've never run into a snake in the house, so I think I got the best deal )
I think our evolution still has quite a way to catch up with our mental idealism of how society should be. Thousands of years worth of 'our tribe' thoughts still linger in a primal kind of way and quickly spoil the tiny steps of progress towards peace through understanding.

Anyway, I just wanted to say what a very well written thread you've made I really appreciate it as I know will most ATS members. Hopefully you get an applause from the mods, it's very well deserved and I'm sure it's probably already in your messages!
Your a fantastic new member and hopefully some of the "one sentence, here's ya link" type thread makers take notice of you and follow in your footsteps about what a thread should be. S+F and well done.

a reply to: nullafides

I agree with you on all points, but that being said; it's just intellectual masturbation.
The system is broken, justice, education, political, economic and cultural.
If it's not FUBAR, how do we fix it with the political divisions plaguing America today.

Voting doesn't work with corruption, greed and institutional dishonesty the order of the day!

Protests won't work because tptb are so powerful they can spin honest concern and public outcry into "terrorist activity" and manipulate
public opinion very easily thru the state controlled media.

What solutions do you see? I don't see any at all; only chaos, anarchy, civil war, race war, and even more extreme divisions, as the powerful elite watch us tear ourselves apart. Ferguson was just an overt outgrowth of something much more deep and tragic in America.

I used to think the survivalist and those predicting a shtf event were guilty of massive hyperbole....not any more!!

Perhaps my cynicism and jaded outlook is unwarranted . Help me change it....

a reply to: Qumulys


Thank you

My personal experience with spiders, I don't care for them, they freak me out. However, I fully understand and respect their rightful place in the world, and mostly the food chain. They take out mosquitos when they can, flys, and other pests. When they're in my home, if they're chilling out in a corner on the ceiling, I'm good with it. If they're coming at me, dear god, either capture it (which I'll readily do if possible), or kill it with fire!!!

I saw a girl handling a tarantula in an exotic pet shop. I went, ICK, and said hell no. I'm not going to let a 12 yr old girl best me, I'm a 45 yr old man. I held it, and it was cool. Amazingly light (like a bird or owl) to the point of feeling weightless.

I'm good without handling another one though in my life


And yeppers, one applause received




NF

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: nullafides

I agree with you on all points, but that being said; it's just intellectual masturbation.
The system is broken, justice, education, political, economic and cultural.
If it's not FUBAR, how do we fix it with the political divisions plaguing America today.

Voting doesn't work with corruption, greed and institutional dishonesty the order of the day!

Protests won't work because tptb are so powerful they can spin honest concern and public outcry into "terrorist activity" and manipulate
public opinion very easily thru the state controlled media.

What solutions do you see? I don't see any at all; only chaos, anarchy, civil war, race war, and even more extreme divisions, as the powerful elite watch us tear ourselves apart. Ferguson was just an overt outgrowth of something much more deep and tragic in America.

I used to think the survivalist and those predicting a shtf event were guilty of massive hyperbole....not any more!!

Perhaps my cynicism and jaded outlook is unwarranted . Help me change it....

Truthfully, you are preaching to the choir

I agree with regards to the futile scenario we're in. I personally think that voting on anything but the most minute level (city, maybe state) is absolutely pointless. Go on flamers, jump on me, tell me I'm not allowed to complain if I don't vote. Tell me it's my duty as an american to vote. Tell me I'm the reason for the system not working, because my absence of a vote tilts the playing field, and gets people like Obama voted in (who, frankly, I don't see as bad as Bush, but nowhere near appropriate for our nations issues). These are the reasons I personally haven't voted since I was 22.

And you know what? I haven't seen a bit of a change because I didn't vote.

And besides, look at the function of the electoral college, and tell me that your vote in POTUS elections actually are worth the average price of a single cows manure. It's not. Don't get me started on the electoral college.

I only have one hope for the future. That hope is that people get their asses up off the couch, and take matters into their own hands.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.




NF

a reply to: nullafides

Just look at the middle eastern countries who disabled Blackberry communication. Who blocked facebook and twitter. These are only a few examples of the control.

I saw that stuff right here, too. Remember the anti Muslim film they blamed for Ben Ghazi? That was filtered out of YouTube in Afghanistan to prevent attacks on American soldiers and purposely shown elsewhere to cause riots.

They may shut it all down and go back to top down information dissemination only, but its already too late. Look at how awake we have become. They can never take that back.

Can't get fooled again.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: nullafides

Just look at the middle eastern countries who disabled Blackberry communication. Who blocked facebook and twitter. These are only a few examples of the control.

I saw that stuff right here, too. Remember the anti Muslim film they blamed for Ben Ghazi? That was filtered out of YouTube in Afghanistan to prevent attacks on American soldiers and purposely shown elsewhere to cause riots.

They may shut it all down and go back to top down information dissemination only, but its already too late. Look at how awake we have become. They can never take that back.

Can't get fooled again.

It's already too late, I agree.

But how could we possibly be effective, other than in mustering small groups (say, 10-20?) as a response through any real form of communication that maybe left to our use? Sure, as time goes, and groups travel and foray, others can be brought into the fold.

One of my main concerns is the possibility of firepower and ammunition. Alot of ammo is simply not available, or on sincere back order, as much has been taken or claimed by the Military. The only resort would be to take on ambush and sniping scenarios.

I'm feeling rather cautious in saying much of this. Much more could raise concerns. I believe I should stop right here, as I'm sure you get my point.

Hopefully, it never ever comes to this. Peaceful means is always the best route. But....



NF

a reply to: nullafides

Hopefully, it never ever comes to this. Peaceful means is always the best route. But….

Leave out the buts…

MLK used to tell people that wanted to come along on a protest that if you can't take a blow from a police baton without fighting back… stay home.

So did Ghandi. The most important ting about non violent protest is to let the world see that you didn't become like what you are protesting against. As soon as you respond with force you lose credibility and play into the hands of authorities. Thats their game and they will win every time.

When I said we are awake I meant use that awareness to respond on the internet to the liars, warmongers and greedy so as to show both sides in a public forum. Something I was unable too do in my younger years.

Don't ever take this venue for granted, I know what its like without it. The before internet years sucked.

Rage against the dying of the light…

carry on

PS: any study of resistance movements should include the French underground during the German occupation in WWII.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: nullafides

Hopefully, it never ever comes to this. Peaceful means is always the best route. But….

Leave out the buts…

MLK used to tell people that wanted to come along on a protest that if you can't take a blow from a police baton without fighting back… stay home.

Rather sorry to tell you this, but (intentionally included here), hell no.

I firmly believe there is a time for peace, and a time for action. Action that sometimes takes the form of aggression. Just as international talks break down, even where peace is preferred and desired, they still break down.

Personally, I feel that pacifism is a wonderful idea. Just as (and by no means to belittle anyone else for their beliefs) Santa Clause is. I know that sounds extreme, but it is a beautiful idea of peace, happiness, and joy. However, the reality of it is, this is not always the case.


NF