He states another click, Darren Wilson

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: buni11687

ETA - Yea, im going to stop doing this now to because Im not so sure this is good for the gun.

I feel like we're scientists. Maybe not the brightest ones, but still. No negligent discharges right? RIGHT!? Now let me see if I can find a pencil...

Pro tip - Dont point the pencil towards yourself or anything that'll easily break. I never knew my M9's firing pin hit with such force until I put a pencil hole in my wall last year.

a reply to: buni11687

Pro tip - Dont point the pencil towards yourself or anything that'll easily break. I never knew my M9's firing pin hit with such force until I put a pencil hole in my wall last year.

Why must you tempt me so?

OK, just tried it. Pencil moves like an inch. I was disappointed. Doesn't move at all if the slide is back even a little bit. Gotta say too that if anything this makes me believe Wilson even more. It would be a really weird thing to make up, but someone is going to say that's why he did.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: buni11687

Pro tip - Dont point the pencil towards yourself or anything that'll easily break. I never knew my M9's firing pin hit with such force until I put a pencil hole in my wall last year.

Why must you tempt me so?

OK, just tried it. Pencil moves like an inch. I was disappointed. Doesn't move at all if the slide is back even a little bit. Gotta say too that if anything this makes me believe Wilson even more. It would be a really weird thing to make up, but someone is going to say that's why he did.

Agreed. When I first heard Wilson say Brown jammed his gun by holding the slide, I was a bit confused. He pulled the trigger and it went click, then pulled again and another click. Looks like we found out what was happening.

After our science experiments, I also am believing Wilson even more.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: LDragonFire

I can do video if you really want me to. He was carrying a P229.

I can get two different clicks depending on how far back the slide is. Neither would fire the gun.

Would you mind? I would love to understand this and am afraid to try it with my own handgun. I am a good shooter during the CHL testing but have a slight gun-paranoia.

Edit: And I'm guessing you could keep your face off the video and just do hands + handgun view. For privacy. If you even care.

a reply to: Ameilia

Crap. OK give me a few minutes. I actually already tried but manipulating the slide and pulling the trigger require two hands and my GoPro is giving me grief.

This may be a very weird video.

No please don't, we don't need anyone injured. I take y'alls word for it, I know there are many gun experts on ATS to prove or disprove!!!!

a reply to: LDragonFire

I have a very good angle for testing this, a round would have to go through a very solid brick fireplace, then through some walls, then would have a LONG way to go before being dangerous.

I will make very certain the thing is unloaded. I just went to my local gun shop today to pick up a knife and some batteries for my Surefire and almost bought some snapcaps. Would have been freaking perfect for this.

I may try to find this on YouTube first though and won't do it if I can't figure out a way to rig up my phone. The dog is too clumsy to hold it.

Here's a video I found, but in this case it's with a striker-fired handgun.



There's a certain length the slide can be pulled back until the trigger goes dead. However, if the slide is pulled back, but is less than that certain length, the trigger can still be pulled.

Ugh this may take a second longer, girlfriend called.

a reply to: Domo1

Let me see if I can find my 9mm snap caps and check this out with my P226...

Of course clear the firearm multiple times and keep live ammo in a separate room for good measure...

Im also searching through the web to find a better way of explaining what's going on. (also trying to find correct terminology).

Lets see if I can explain this better. Semi-automatic handguns in general are not supposed to be able to fire "out of battery". Out of battery means that the slide is not fully forward. If the slide is locked back, it's out of battery. If you hold the slide back an inch or 2 or 3, it's out of battery. If the slide is not 100% forward, it's out of battery, and should be unable to fire. Additionally, many trigger mechanisms wont engage even when the slide is remotely rearward.

When the slide is fully forward, and you have ammunition loaded in the gun, the round is properly seated. Once you get out of battery, that round is now improperly seated. (very bad).

Im still trying to figure out what those clunky clicks were when we tried this. I still think that the firing pin cannot fully reach the primer of the improperly seated round (well, in my case, an eraser of a pencil.)

Just had this come to mind in regards to the "click" sounds.

Maybe we're thinking too far into this and Wilson was referring to the sounds made just by the trigger being pulled back, and not the sound of the hammer falling. For example, with the slide locked back on my M9, the trigger still makes a good amount of noise when pulling it. Yes, the trigger is dead and freely moves back without dropping the hammer onto the firing pin, but there's still a "click" sounding noise coming from just the trigger.

a reply to: Domo1

its like you guys are the ATS Myth busters but with less accidental cannon shots and explosions

a reply to: Domo1

The next five are trigger pulls when the slide is about a 1/4 inch back.

The next five are trigger pulls with the slide with a bit of pressure. You can see that the hammer is wanting to move, but it's range is limited and it barely does.

Looks like the hammer doesn't go anywhere near the firing pin there, which I think now eliminates my theory on light primer strikes. There are still quite audible click sounds while in both positions out of battery however.

I read over the transcripts from this link, and on page 29 is when Wilson starts talking about his gun not going off. i.cdn.turner.com...

Right after Brown grabbed Wilson's gun, the gun was forced down into Wilson's hip and was pointing at his leg. Struggle ensued and Wilson was able to lift the gun slightly up and here's what he said.

Next thing I remember putting my left hand on it like this, putting my elbow into the back of my seat and pushing with all I could forward.

He pushed the gun as far forward as he could while Brown was basically pushing the gun down at the same time. The slide had to have been pretty well out of battery after this. One force pushing down, while an opposing force is pushing forwards and up. Click, click, bang, click, bang.

First 2 clicks were out of battery, while I believe the 3rd click was either a failure to feed or a failure to eject. There's not too much info to go off of on the third click, but Wilson does say

Without even looking, I just grab the top of my gun, the slide and I racked it, and I put my, still not looking just holding my hand up, I pulled the trigger again, it goes off.

a reply to: LDragonFire

In both my S&W M&P .40c and in my Bodyguard, if there is nothing in the chamber but a magazine is inserted, it still goes through the action of the trigger causing the hammer to draw back and release. I would assume that is the click that he is discussing.

Both of these have the capability of firing without a magazine inserted, so I don't know if that has something to do with it.

Of course, what my weapons do don't matter unless they are the same model as his, but I know that gripping the slide would have no bearing on the trigger action. These are both double-action-only weapons.

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: Domo1

If you watch the video from Wilson that I posted he doesn't say any of this. He states that Brown put his hand on top of his gun and was trying to get into the trigger guard to shoot him with his own fire arm. He attempted to fire twice and when he mentions the second attempt he claimed to hear another click. He never mentions the slide moving.

This IMO is reasonable doubt, and that's all the grand jury was required to issue a indictment.

I think you don't understand how a grand jury works--this is not a trial nor a conviction, so "reasonable doubt" does not even come into play. This is a good explanation specific to this case, and here is a quote from it:

In deciding whether to indict, the grand jury will be looking for probable cause of a crime, which means that there is some evidence of each of the elements of [the] crime. This is a much lower standard than proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the standard trial juries use to determine if someone is guilty.

So, you see, even at the lower standard used by a grand jury, they still did not see evidence that fit all elements of the proposed charges--that's pretty telling that it just wasn't there.

And honestly, if you're in a struggle, odds that you're going to remember or notice the detail of the slide of the weapon moving is pretty low.

a reply to: LDragonFire

If the slide is held back, even slightly, the striker will not fire the round, but it will actuate.

The second click could have been a trigger resetting, or the slide moving forward again from its slight rearward position.

Here's another video that pretty much sums up everything in regards to this.