Firms Have $3,000 Incentive For Hiring Illegals Under Obama Amnesty

They are not going to take a single job as a result of this amnesty.

They qualify for Social Security Disability now.

They don't speak the language and that is going to be their golden ticket.

No jobs lost and 5-20 million added to the dole.

See, nothing to worry about

originally posted by: Aazadan
They're not allowed to hold the jobs now. We have the necessary laws in place, it's merely a matter of enforcement. The problem is that local economies WANT illegals, the reality of the situation is that we have sectors in the US that depend heavily on low cost labor. Those sectors lobby their local governments/law enforcement to not capture illegals. Actually enforcing these laws gets viewed as federal overreach, governments coming in and breaking up local businesses and such.

yes, because god forbid the government actually does one of the jobs it's supposed to, which is protect the country from foreign invaders. let's piss on them for doing what they're SUPPOSED to do, but give 'em a free pass when they ignore their other responsibilities.....

OF COURSE businesses want to do everything as cheaply as possible...doesn't make it right...and it certainly doesn't give them a free pass to break the law.

The way to fix this is to make the illegals legal. Once that happens their earnings start going through the IRS and the company becomes forced to pay a legal wage. It also means those former illegals now have to purchase health insurance rather than overload emergency rooms. There are a lot of benefits to be had for the rest of society by simply making them legal. It is not in the benefit of the working class to have a second class citizen that gets the same jobs at half the wage. The only problem becomes how to prevent the flood of illegals in the first place.

no, making them legal isn't the answer....it's a slap in the face to all the decent folks trying to immigrate here the proper and legal way....not to mention it's basically rewarding them for breaking our laws....

the only advantage is to the illegals, who will now be protected from deportation, while still being free to work under the table, and off the radar....and they'll still send their money back to mexico, where a single one of our dollars, is worth nearly 14 of their pesos.....

and when they've saved up enough in mexico, they go home, and live comfortably for the rest of their lives...

As far as freebies go, like almost all welfare programs in the US aside from disability our welfare programs focus on quality of life for a child not quality of life for the adult and if the people now have sufficient verifiable income rather than working under the table they're more likely to not be getting those freebies.

doesn't matter....they've learned how to game the system, they know how to live off the radar, so they'll keep getting freebies....the ONLY thing making them legal would do, is shield them from deportation, while they continue stealing from us..

a reply to: Aazadan

the difference between me and an illegal, is that when challenged, i can PROVE that i'm a citizen....a look at my documentation, and about 20 minutes on the phone, and ICE would be able to determine i belong here..

originally posted by: Daedalus
doesn't matter....they've learned how to game the system, they know how to live off the radar, so they'll keep getting freebies....the ONLY thing making them legal would do, is shield them from deportation, while they continue stealing from us..

Wrong. Making them legal brings them into the system. That means they get tracked and need to show some income. That forces them to not take under the table jobs because the IRS is going to be watching. It means they're contributing to the health insurance pools. As illegals they are second class citizens, they can be used and abused for less money in ways that legal citizens cannot, it's the same issue as with prison labor. A legal citizen cannot even legally be paid what the illegals are working for. By making them legal, they are also subject to those laws and that means a person who didn't need to rely on amnesty can atleast compete. It's not a perfect solution but the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good.

originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: Aazadan

the difference between me and an illegal, is that when challenged, i can PROVE that i'm a citizen....a look at my documentation, and about 20 minutes on the phone, and ICE would be able to determine i belong here..

You don't get challenged until you're in court. Why does the government need to listen to your case at all if their accusation is enough? What happens when they're not deporting enough people and need to boost the numbers? They'll have an incentive to not listen to you. What if they say you're using fake documents?

Trials force the government to prove they actually have a case, that is why we have them. They protect the innocent and provide confirmation of the guilty.

originally posted by: Daedalus
OF COURSE businesses want to do everything as cheaply as possible...doesn't make it right...and it certainly doesn't give them a free pass to break the law.

Local economies care more about what benefits them than what the law says. That's why this is an enforcement issue. Do you think the local communities in California care that the army of illegals they're paying to pick crops is costing the federal government a lot of money? It doesn't cost those individuals very much and they're getting profit from it. Profit that goes back into their local economy funding the schools and police departments. They have no incentive to enforce the law and every reason to prevent the feds from doing so.

It doesn't take much from that point, you get a local government supporting you and from there you get some allies in the state legislature and once you frame it as pro business you can get a representative or senator to block action. The whole system is based on looking out for your local area, and F everyone else. The fix is to grant amnesty as that's something that can be done beyond the reach of the local governments, and then secure the border (or preferably before the amnesty) so that we don't create this opportunity again in the future.

originally posted by: Aazadan
Wrong. Making them legal brings them into the system. That means they get tracked and need to show some income.

this is one of the stupidest things i've seen anyone say here...

i'm a citizen, i'm technically "in the system"...i'm not being "tracked"(in the way you imply), and i don't need to "show some income".

That forces them to not take under the table jobs because the IRS is going to be watching.

no it doesn't. the IRS doesn't have the resources to assign a person to watch every one of these people....and even if they did, it would open them up for a lawsuit, because it would definitely fall under "discrimination".

they can still get away with working under the table, because unless the IRS can prove they're making over 10k a year, and are not declaring it, they can't touch them. do everything in cash, and there's no paper trail, thus no proof....

It means they're contributing to the health insurance pools.

no it doesn't.

As illegals they are second class citizens

no they're not...because they're not citizens at all.

they can be used and abused for less money in ways that legal citizens cannot

as was their choice when they came here. even making what they're making, they're still making out better than most of us, because no taxes, low overhead, and our money is worth more where they come from, so they're saving for a nice fat retirement....something a great many of us will never get....

it's the same issue as with prison labor

come again? don't tell me you're trying to compare these people to prisoners....they can leave any time....

A legal citizen cannot even legally be paid what the illegals are working for.

thanks for clearing that up...

By making them legal, they are also subject to those laws and that means a person who didn't need to rely on amnesty can atleast compete.

that really depends on the job....contractors are still gonna pick up brown people from in front of the convenience store....hell, i saw this thing once with this mexican guy....he immigrated here legally, but he pretended to be illegal, so he could get the work...

It's not a perfect solution but the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good.

ok, and this makes no sense at all...

a reply to: Aazadan

clearly, you have no idea how the system works.

they need to have probable cause to arrest you. the most basic of investigation would show i belong here, and am therefore, not subject to deportation.

a reply to: Aazadan

you're deluded.

as i said, all amnesty does is shield them from deportation, while they continue on with business as usual.

it's not gonna make anything any better, and it's an insult to the people trying to come here the right way.

originally posted by: Daedalus
this is one of the stupidest things i've seen anyone say here...

i'm a citizen, i'm technically "in the system"...i'm not being "tracked"(in the way you imply), and i don't need to "show some income".

One of the things the IRS asks every year is how you support yourself. You have to show income for that, if your argument is that you have no income your employer is going to disagree when they have to file their taxes. Unless you're still working under the table, of course that's illegal too. But then the problem isn't that the person is illegal, it's that they're evading taxes and eventually the IRS catches up to that even though it may take a decade or two.

they can still get away with working under the table, because unless the IRS can prove they're making over 10k a year, and are not declaring it, they can't touch them. do everything in cash, and there's no paper trail, thus no proof....

When the employer has to ultimately show his business expenses such as employees the IRS will catch up to the person. They won't get everyone of course but they'll get quite a few.

no they're not...because they're not citizens at all.

Second class residents then. They're a labor force that can be paid less, has less overhead, and has fewer legal rights. Removing that distinction removes that advantage.

come again? don't tell me you're trying to compare these people to prisoners....they can leave any time....

I didn't say they're prisoners, I said it's the same issue as with prison labor. In many areas prisoners are farmed out by jails to work tasks for the local community. These can be construction positions, lawnscaping, even administrative positions in offices. The company that pays the prisoner pays a wage, usually less than minimum wage to the prison. This causes honest citizens to lose out on those jobs as they cannot compete at the wage the prison offers. The fix there is widely regarded to be making prison labor charge the market rate. It's the same fix for the problem of illegals, except you have to go about things differently in order to charge that market rate. In the case of illegals it means making them legal so that they have proper legal standing to file suits against employers that don't pay a proper wage. Which also oddly enough means them documenting their wages.

originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: Aazadan

clearly, you have no idea how the system works.

they need to have probable cause to arrest you. the most basic of investigation would show i belong here, and am therefore, not subject to deportation.

And just when exactly do you think probable cause comes into play? During court. It's part of the burden of proof the state must meet in order to show that their evidence gathering and charges are legal. Without a trial you never have that burden of proof.

originally posted by: Aazadan
One of the things the IRS asks every year is how you support yourself.

who are they asking? they're not asking me. are they asking you?...or are they only going to ask these amnestied mexicans? that would fall under discrimination, i would imagine...

eventually the IRS catches up to that even though it may take a decade or two.

and by then, they're already back in mexico, enjoying their retirement..

When the employer has to ultimately show his business expenses such as employees the IRS will catch up to the person. They won't get everyone of course but they'll get quite a few.

business still hafta reconcile their expenses now....so whether they're paying an illegal under the table, or an amnestied non-citizen, they're still gonna hafta either declare it to IRS, or cook the books, so the money disappears.

Second class residents then. They're a labor force that can be paid less, has less overhead, and has fewer legal rights. Removing that distinction removes that advantage.

maybe, maybe not....that depends entirely upon whether or not the person in question, and the employer in question, feel like playing by the rules....

the employer is gonna want to do whatever is cheaper, and the illegal isn't gonna give a crap, because they don't give a crap now...being here is a means to an end....they don't give a crap what kind of mess they make, because they're gonna be gone in a while anyway..

I didn't say they're prisoners, I said it's the same issue as with prison labor. In many areas prisoners are farmed out by jails to work tasks for the local community. These can be construction positions, lawnscaping, even administrative positions in offices. The company that pays the prisoner pays a wage, usually less than minimum wage to the prison. This causes honest citizens to lose out on those jobs as they cannot compete at the wage the prison offers. The fix there is widely regarded to be making prison labor charge the market rate. It's the same fix for the problem of illegals, except you have to go about things differently in order to charge that market rate. In the case of illegals it means making them legal so that they have proper legal standing to file suits against employers that don't pay a proper wage. Which also oddly enough means them documenting their wages.

ok, understood, didn't know prisons did that, i'll leave this one alone, as it's not really on-topic.

And just when exactly do you think probable cause comes into play? During court. It's part of the burden of proof the state must meet in order to show that their evidence gathering and charges are legal. Without a trial you never have that burden of proof.

um.....the trial comes AFTER you're arrested, not before..

they'd need a warrant to arrest you...in order to get a warrant, they need to provide probable cause....which would mean some degree of investigation.. c'mon man...

originally posted by: Daedalus
who are they asking? they're not asking me. are they asking you?...or are they only going to ask these amnestied mexicans? that would fall under discrimination, i would imagine...

They ask me. I have a low paying job and attend school out of pocket. They want to know where the money comes from because the two most common outcomes are I'm getting financial aid that I'm not paying tax on, or that my income is higher than reported. I go through this with them every year though it has never been a full blown audit.

The IRS asks who they ask based on filings that don't look right.

and by then, they're already back in mexico, enjoying their retirement..

For some. For others they're still here. Not everyone takes that long.

business still hafta reconcile their expenses now....so whether they're paying an illegal under the table, or an amnestied non-citizen, they're still gonna hafta either declare it to IRS, or cook the books, so the money disappears.

By making everyone legal, they're on the same legal footing. It forces the employer to pay atleast minimum wage for the work. If the employer doesn't, the former illegal can take the guy to court and win, thereby getting his wages.

maybe, maybe not....that depends entirely upon whether or not the person in question, and the employer in question, feel like playing by the rules....

If no one is willing to play by the rules then the feds have to step in. So far they've been very wary of doing that. Even when a cop declared martial law and took over an entire town throwing out the mayor and city council the feds still didn't step in.

More than likely however, you're going to see the former illegals playing by the rules because by doing so they get more. Regardless of what they intend to do with the money, they want more money. By remaining illegal and working under the table they get $6/hour. But by taking the amnesty they can now force the employer to pay them 9/hour, a 50% increase. What participant in a market economy isn't going to do that?

um.....the trial comes AFTER you're arrested, not before..

they'd need a warrant to arrest you...in order to get a warrant, they need to provide probable cause....which would mean some degree of investigation.. c'mon man...

First comes the accusation. Next comes probable cause to investigate further. After that they get their evidence and give you a court date. At court you show up and defend yourself, one of the main ways to do that is to show that there was no probable cause in the first place, as that makes all of their evidence worthless. For this to ever happen though you need to have a trial. Trials for deportees are important because it makes the state prove that each one is illegal. We should never simply trust an accusation of a low level employee for something like this because if we do, when they accuse us we have no recourse to fight it. Remember, they get to pick and choose whatever evidence they want for the court date and very often exculpatory evidence is denied by the prosecutor.

Trials are important, you may not like the idea of extending our constitutional protections to an illegal but the alternative is that the government can say you are illegal and remove all of your constitutional protections. A justice system either works for everyone or no one. There's no middle ground here.

a reply to: Aazadan

By making everyone legal, they're on the same legal footing. It forces the employer to pay at least minimum wage for the work. If the employer doesn't, the former illegal can take the guy to court and win, thereby getting his wages.

We have had other amnesties and many illegals decided to stay illegal.

originally posted by: Night Star
We have had other amnesties and many illegals decided to stay illegal.

Given the political climate of illegals never knowing if their amnesty is going to be retroactively revoked by one political party or the other why would they ever come forward?

It's the same with Obama's EO recently, he gave it but how many are actually going to come forward considering the congress is about to change and it's looking like illegal immigration is going to be on the top of the agenda?

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: Soloprotocol

(A) UK not USA

(B) By your own admission, your employer never would have existed without exploiting immigrant labor...so..you never would have had a job otherwise?

UK/USA what does it matter.

Look at a map.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
I never admitted anything of the sort, The company existed just fine albeit on a smaller scale before the influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe.

Your last post is calling BS on you.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol He was a Farmer before he got into the Structural Engineering and hiring cheap European labour Game.

-sigh- oh, Jesus Christ...

originally posted by: Aazadan
They ask me. I have a low paying job and attend school out of pocket. They want to know where the money comes from because the two most common outcomes are I'm getting financial aid that I'm not paying tax on, or that my income is higher than reported. I go through this with them every year though it has never been a full blown audit.

The IRS asks who they ask based on filings that don't look right.

ok, so they ask you, because you have special circumstances, that would prompt curiosity. your situation draws attention. let's not use you as an example. illegals aren't having low-paying jobs, and attending school out of pocket...

taking that into account, answer the question again.

For some. For others they're still here. Not everyone takes that long.

some take longer....maybe they wanna make sure they have LOTS and LOTS of money...remember that exchange rate, man..

By making everyone legal, they're on the same legal footing. It forces the employer to pay atleast minimum wage for the work. If the employer doesn't, the former illegal can take the guy to court and win, thereby getting his wages.

your assumption here, is that they WANT to be citizens, and that they WANT to participate in the system...

If no one is willing to play by the rules then the feds have to step in. So far they've been very wary of doing that. Even when a cop declared martial law and took over an entire town throwing out the mayor and city council the feds still didn't step in.

because they had no legal authority to do so? that would be a state matter...

More than likely however, you're going to see the former illegals playing by the rules because by doing so they get more. Regardless of what they intend to do with the money, they want more money. By remaining illegal and working under the table they get $6/hour. But by taking the amnesty they can now force the employer to pay them 9/hour, a 50% increase. What participant in a market economy isn't going to do that?

are you really bad at math, or something?

they're not getting more.... that "extra" 3 dollars is going straight to federal and state income taxes, social security. medicare/medicaid, and the other numerous deductions that are standard....so they're STILL only making like 6 an hour...there is zero advantage..

First comes the accusation. Next comes probable cause to investigate further. After that they get their evidence and give you a court date. At court you show up and defend yourself, one of the main ways to do that is to show that there was no probable cause in the first place, as that makes all of their evidence worthless. For this to ever happen though you need to have a trial. Trials for deportees are important because it makes the state prove that each one is illegal. We should never simply trust an accusation of a low level employee for something like this because if we do, when they accuse us we have no recourse to fight it. Remember, they get to pick and choose whatever evidence they want for the court date and very often exculpatory evidence is denied by the prosecutor.

Trials are important, you may not like the idea of extending our constitutional protections to an illegal but the alternative is that the government can say you are illegal and remove all of your constitutional protections. A justice system either works for everyone or no one. There's no middle ground here.

you're just not getting it.

you accuse me of being illegal...you call ICE...they look me up, spend about 30 minutes looking around, determine i'm not illegal, i never get arrested, it never goes to trial....

you can't be arrested, without out some form of investigation taking place beforehand, unless you're observed by a law enforcement agent, actively breaking the law.

originally posted by: Daedalus
ok, so they ask you, because you have special circumstances, that would prompt curiosity. your situation draws attention. let's not use you as an example. illegals aren't having low-paying jobs, and attending school out of pocket...

No, they're just having low paying jobs that they can't possibly support themselves on. That's something they have to explain especially since they need to provide an address and proof of expenses like rent and utilities in order to be getting benefits like food stamps.

some take longer....maybe they wanna make sure they have LOTS and LOTS of money...remember that exchange rate, man..

You don't get "LOTS and LOTS" of money by working under the table for below minimum wage. Even with the exchange rate life has expenses.

your assumption here, is that they WANT to be citizens, and that they WANT to participate in the system...

No. My assertion is that we can set it up so that it's more beneficial to them to be citizens. Simultaneously it is more beneficial for actual honest citizens. People are motivated by self interest, when you make it better for them to be in the system they'll want to participate.

because they had no legal authority to do so? that would be a state matter...

And when state representatives that come from districts that benefit from illegals want them to remain? That's what's happening right now.

they're not getting more.... that "extra" 3 dollars is going straight to federal and state income taxes, social security. medicare/medicaid, and the other numerous deductions that are standard....so they're STILL only making like 6 an hour...there is zero advantage..

They already pay Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and several other deductions. The employer takes it out of their check. What they're not paying is income tax but income tax isn't 50% of their income.

you're just not getting it.

you accuse me of being illegal...you call ICE...they look me up, spend about 30 minutes looking around, determine i'm not illegal, i never get arrested, it never goes to trial....

you can't be arrested, without out some form of investigation taking place beforehand, unless you're observed by a law enforcement agent, actively breaking the law.

No, you're not getting it. Why should ICE listen to you? What if they've already decided you're illegal? You're proposing giving them to power to deport anyone they want for the accusation of being illegal. If they have to prove their case in court that doesn't happen.

originally posted by: Aazadan
No, they're just having low paying jobs that they can't possibly support themselves on. That's something they have to explain especially since they need to provide an address and proof of expenses like rent and utilities in order to be getting benefits like food stamps.

if they're getting benefits, then yes, i suppose they would end up needing to answer a bunch of questions about income....but if they're not, then they don't.

You don't get "LOTS and LOTS" of money by working under the table for below minimum wage. Even with the exchange rate life has expenses.

-sigh- ok, so i'll run you through this....

you get 10 or so of them together, they pool their resources, and rent a house..if they're all working under the table, for cash, they've got the resources to afford the rent, and food, and transportation, with enough left over to send back to mexico. even if they're only able to send 25 bucks a month, back, that still translates to (as of today, with slight rounding, for round numbers) roughly 350 pesos...assuming the exchange rate holds at roughly the same, over the course of 10 years, that's roughly 42,000 pesos...go 20 years, and that's 84,000 pesos....if they're able to send 50 dollars a month home, then you're talking 84,000 at 10 years, and 168,000 at 20 years...and so on, and so forth, depending on how much they can send home...

i mean, assume there's 10 of them, and they rent a crappy little place, say the rent is 1000 a month....that's only 100 bucks a head, and the rent is covered....a van for transport(this is unrelated to the van that comes to pick them up for work), with fake out of state tags, no insurance..van probably costs a grand...so we're up to two... food cost across the household maybe a grand and a half.....so three and one half....say each one of them gets paid 200 bucks a day, assuming they work 5 days, that's a grand a week...4 grand a month...that's 40 grand a month, between the 10 of them. no taxes, no contributions to state or government programs...they have the means to support themselves, AND send quite a lot home. even if they're only pulling in HALF that, they've still got sufficient means to make it work, because they're pooling resources...

No. My assertion is that we can set it up so that it's more beneficial to them to be citizens. Simultaneously it is more beneficial for actual honest citizens. People are motivated by self interest, when you make it better for them to be in the system they'll want to participate.

the ONLY benefit it provides them is protection from deportation, while they continue padding their retirement fund...

And when state representatives that come from districts that benefit from illegals want them to remain? That's what's happening right now.

the two situations are nothing alike...apples, and oranges, man...let it go, because it will only lead to off-topic sidetracking..

They already pay Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and several other deductions.The employer takes it out of their check.

they do? explain to me exactly how someone working under the table, for cash, with no documented record of employment, and no "paycheck" is paying ANY deductions..

What they're not paying is income tax but income tax isn't 50% of their income.

no, what they're not paying, is ANYTHING....and holy crap, you really ARE bad at math...3 out of 9 is not 50%

No, you're not getting it. Why should ICE listen to you? What if they've already decided you're illegal? You're proposing giving them to power to deport anyone they want for the accusation of being illegal. If they have to prove their case in court that doesn't happen.

holy. effing. christ.

i never proposed to give them the power to deport anyone they want, on nothing more than the accusation of being illegal...where in the hell do you GET this crap?

investigation comes before court. this is a fact...just stop already.

a reply to: Daedalus

I think you just unlocked the secret to becoming very wealthy. We should set up something where 10 of us all live together and make money, we'll be rich in no time!

No really, I'm so glad to hear that you know exactly how illegal aliens live and work. I'm sure you're aware of all the nuances of their lifestyle so that you have all the answers for how to deal with them and their situations. I'm happy you're here to set us straight on the lives of 11 million people. Please don't post any links to back up any of your claims, you type in such an authoritative manner that I feel that you're correct in everything you've just said.

a reply to: links234

the neighborhood i used to live in was lousy with illegals. i could go into detail as to exactly how i know what i know, but i have no documentation to present you with, and you'd probably say i was full of s**t, and a racist....so there's no point.

i know what i know.

and please, spare me the bleeding heart "those poor people" routine.....it's a lot more than 11 million, and they don't belong here in the first place. if they wanna live in america, and be citizens, they can apply for citizenship, and go through the motions, like the rest of the folks who wanna be citizens..