Sexism, Misogyny and the rise and rise and rise of the internet asshole....

a reply to: eisegesis

And that's part of the problem.

Why the hell does no one listen?

a reply to: neformore

Do you play online gaming? I see racists, sexists, people wishing death on children, children wishing death on other people.... It is not just a womens issue is what I am saying. Everyone has a target on their back when people can be anonymous.

a reply to: neformore

No where in my post did I talk about regulating the internet. I talked about social responsibility.

And that's all good. Problem is - enough people whine about this (not saying you are - just pointing out) if enough people put up a stink? It will be one of the last nails in the coffin of regulation.

peace

a reply to: neformore

I feel your pain Nef, but from my point of view, it's up the the user to ignore sites that accept that kind of activity...

I place the blame more on the site hosts who do nothing to discourage the activity that you describe, and it is not confined to your main issue expressed in the OP. It is across the spectrum of communicating on the web, IMO.

Plenty of filth available on the cable and satellite tv these days, consumer choice to tune in or not, I use the same thought process with the web....

Like you, I wish it was better, but until the folks who run the sites and services on the web, decide to action this kind of disgusting web behaviour, our best bet as consumers is to ignore those sites, and not resort to threats of violence on those personalities that put a burr in our side...

Plenty of good folks out there, and alot of them are here

a reply to: OrphanApology

I have no interest in jailing these people. All I was suggesting was a nice, friendly edge of the hand to the throat, or brick to the back of the head. Either way, these people are proving themselves unworthy of any positive effort on their behalf, every time they log on!

The fact is, if a man is prepared to type the words "I am going to rape you" on a message board, or anywhere in the net, or say them in physical life, then that man needs his sternum caving in with a lump hammer, preferably over a period of a few days if possible, not a stern talking to! If I heard that in my home town, I would be applying a choke hold to the bastard faster than you can say "apply pressure to the windpipe" .

The other thing that really gets on my nerves about these morons, is that they give men in general a bad name. It only takes one really messed up individual, making one awful comment, to really damage a woman's psyche. I know this because I have seen it before. Men, all male human beings, ought to have a protective instinct toward women and children, not a predatory instinct, or a malignant instinct. There is no excuse for a man not to have that, and part of that instinct is to treat women with respect.

It should be a given, and when it is not, there is no getting around the fact that these days you have to work damned hard at being enough of a bastard to ignore public opinion, and hate on women. This is not an issue that will be solved by rational debate, or by re-educating these idiots. This is an issue that can only be solved by liberal application of the contents of a tool shed, to the craniums of those espousing these toxic modes of thought.

Anonymity. Few would say to a persons face what they say on the internet. We had a "C" word for that before the internet. No, not that one.

You are absolutely correct in your observation and while I'm a tough old chick and see a loser behind such comments still I find it really depressing to read the comments section of a lot of websites.

I'm kind of horrified what abuse young girls and women are exposed to online, if not directly, but almost always in reference to some woman who dared make a comment. It could make it really hard to go forward in life and feel personal value in being female.

Sometimes men do defend the woman, and call out the abusive comments, but perhaps it needs more voices and not everyone, male or female, will be willing to get into that mud slinging.

I know fourteen year old boy who talks like this in real life and I need to deal with it due to being a volunteer in an organization he is part of. His parents don't behave like this so I figure its coming from the internet. Sad really.

a reply to: neformore

This is a really exciting time right now, because these questions are at the fore front.

The internet has divided us, it has divided up physical communities and attempted to replace them with non-local ones. However, these non-local communities haven't yet risen to the level of actual communities, where each person truly puts themselves in, and truly interacts with other real people who have fully put themselves in. Instead, its become a world of masks, with people attempting to manipulate the perceptions of others without really putting in who they are, what their vulnerabilities are, and what their dreams are, like people in a real community. As a result, you have these trolls and jerks coming in to web communities trying to manipulate, and it undermines these communities.

As a lover of science, I see it as a systems problem that will be overcome in time. Communities of great value are built with people giving who they really are, and sharing that with others, so that they can gain valuable insight for their own lives. Communities of no value are built by people putting in facades of who they are, to manipulate perceptions to achieve ends that are themselves only desirable due to the manipulation of perceptions of the manipulators.

After watching NLBS #20, I was thinking about Alex Jones. He came out against net neutrality, which only huge level players would do. After some research, I learned he has more viewers/listeners than MSNBC. He must be near neck and neck with CNN. But why? This one man, equivalent in viewers to all the voices at CNN? I've listened to his product, and its quality is good. Why? Because he cries. Because he rages. Because he gets it wrong. Because he's human. Because (even if there is a mask) you get the feeling watching it that there is no mask, no sanitized representation of a human being, just the real thing. And this becomes combined with narratives as government that are just as raw, just as uncensored as his emotions. Dirty, real authenticity in a world of people offering sanitized boring representations of themselves.

This is why he succeeds. Yet does he have something other normal people don't have? NO! We all have dirty, not "sanitized" crazy selves that we could share in honest exchanges. But we don't, we don't dare to. We offer highly photo-shopped Facebook BS representations of ourselves to a world who doesn't give a crap because they don't relate to the perfect and beautiful lives/lies we present. Its only in situations like real relationships and community interactions that we have to put our real selves forward.

Therefore, REAL COMMUNITY online is the systems challenge we are facing, to bring something of real value to people. Getting people to say what and who they are without fear, and what they think, is the challenge of our time. Our perfect politicians should be viewed as the way backward, and our most crazy truth tellers as the way forward. We have to develop systems that lovingly embrace the human condition AS IT IS to get out of this orwellian maze of shaming us for being just like everyone else.

PEace!

a reply to: neformore

I see what you're saying and agree those guys who say stuff like that are certainly assholes. However, as a man who was raised by women (Grandmother, Mother, Sister) I've learned that women are far more capable than most people think and are more than able to see those assholes for exactly what they are and deal with them accordingly.

I've also learned that strong women hate it when you presume they need your protection automatically. If or when they want your help they'll ask for it. Until then, I find it better to just keep an eye on the situation but allow them to deal with it their way. It shows you respect there ability to handle things for themselves and believe me, most women know how to shut down an asshole when they come across one.

Let me throw a wrench in the gears here.

Sexism in Cyberspace: Men Receive More Twitter Abuse than Women

Men receive more online abuse than women, but they are also the main culprits when it comes to trolling, according to a new study by think-tank Demos. Men send around 75% of all abusive tweets – but women are more likely to abuse other women than they are to abuse men.

What do you think? Just another slice (perspective) of a much bigger and more differential pie? I guess it all depends on...

A. What is considered abuse?

or

B. Can you brush it off and not be offended, therefore negating the abuse?

a reply to: eisegesis

Also you have to define "men" and define "women".

While playing age of empires online I encountered what I assume to be 12-13 year old boys saying ridiculous, crude, and abusive things(just based on speech patterns and subtle comments alluding to pop culture references that no "men" would even get).

Sorry it wasn't counter strike but age of empires back in day. I meant to say that newer games have started upholding rules, which has eliminated some abuse. Same with websites.

Suoer dick head trolls are trolling looking for response.

Any response to spew more hate. When I first went web i used to see their insults on YouTubes. I saw that when people just ignored their efforts to draw them in and derail the conversation , eventually they went elsewhere.
Super total asshole Trolls need energy bounced back to feed off of. If it isn't there they get bored. They might even see themselves.

Then they'll leave for sure.

originally posted by: OrphanApology
a reply to: eisegesis

Also you have to define "men" and define "women".

While playing age of empires online I encountered what I assume to be 12-13 year old boys saying ridiculous, crude, and abusive things(just based on speech patterns and subtle comments alluding to pop culture references that no "men" would even get).

Sorry it wasn't counter strike but age of empires back in day. I meant to say that newer games have started upholding rules, which has eliminated some abuse. Same with websites.

Speech patterns are as bad as labels themselves. While I understand where you are coming from, if someone told me they recognized a pattern in my speech, I would immediately do everything in my power to throw them off the scent.

I believe so many enjoy the internet because most have the ability to stay gender free which minimizes insecurities in oneself. And from a human to a human, that is very empowering.

I hate labels and especially hate patterns (in myself). They are unfavorable to my "fly by the seat of my pants" lifestyle. I am organized chaos. With this approach, you are bound to say things that offend somebody eventually. That's where empathy comes in like e-brakes on a car. When all else fails, pull it.

a reply to: eisegesis

What I meant more by that is pop culture references that would make more sense for someone in a particular age group. If that makes sense.

Kind of how it's possible but also unlikely that a 30 something would know the names of the members of the latest boy band, even to make fun of them...just example. That's what I meant more than patterns I suppose. Or complaining about parents in certain ways(I suppose it could be a basement dwelling 40 year old). Comments that kind of fade as you age, at least for most people.

Of course you can never really know what anyone is online. Maybe it's better just to assume that everyone is a Ron Jeremy looking creep driving a white minivan with no windows who is secretly a serial killer. Takes less energy and thought in that sense.

originally posted by: eisegesis

I'd say that assessment is probably correct. Women always seem to be in competition with each other for reasons that aren't always clear to anyone else. I'm not sure if it's always been that way or if it's a result from modern society and media pressure, but it seems to me one big hurdle for women overall is other women.

As far as the men doing most of the trolling, that just makes sense. Immature guys use it as a way of getting attention and/or respect from their peers when they lack the ability to get attention by their accomplishments. They feel inferior so they attempt to bring someone else down rather then lifting themselves up. Since some other idiot will usually find it funny or praise them for it, they use that to gain some sort of acceptance from others. This is why they usually only do it in a public setting with others around who will notice.

A. What is considered abuse?

I'd say it varies quite a bit from person to person.

B. Can you brush it off and not be offended, therefore negating the abuse?

I think so in most cases. The idea that you're never truly a victim until you decide for yourself that your a victim is often time very true. I've known people who absolutely love to play the victim even though nothing is happening to them at all and I've known others who are being attacked from every direction and just laugh at it and keep right on going forward without a care in the world. Just depends on what kind of person you are.

a reply to: neformore

Not just in seedy places, or the dark web, but every single day on social media, in forums (but not on ATS, hopefully) and in comments sections across many sites, hell, even in response to product reviews.

I am having trouble with connection so have not read all the thread, but would like to add on online games also this has become a problem.

I've been online constantly since I first listened to my dad's 28.8 modem connect to the interwebs circa '95. I really think this issue is quite overblown, to the point of making a mountain out of a molehill. What the problem is isn't something misogynistic, it's a kind of treatment launched on people of all kinds. It's less discriminatory than people would care to admit because it's so open for abuse. The problem at hand is called "Internet Troll Assholitis", and it's nothing new. The same jerks in the offline world just carry on online, as they always have.

I believe it is becoming the norm for people to be extreme in front of the screen of the net ,values become non existence, social norms become obsolete, it then become a playground for virtual insanity anything goes in front of the screen of the net, but we allow it, why, censorship is ownership, have minds got so lazy as to only font pinpoint.

Generations now emerge from a multitude of disturbed backgrounds values distorted and deranged a swelling percentage that only gives thought to mock or belittle, aggravate, subject , divide , hurt, oppress, what are we now but pawns to insult and disguise our apparent disregard for each other ,our colossal 7.something Billion family that we are.

I understand that we may have differences to iron out, but the breakdown is becoming fast and apparent on all platforms, I would not class any person as an A hole, but I understand the frustration felt, I feel, it is all an intelligible act for numerous reasons to empower individual egos, but then this begs the question, if so many people are now stooping to this level, to feel that they are somebody, what has happened in our culture/society?

A line of some sort then needs to be drawn, not just on the net, but across all aspects, of our existence, as a swirling tide of ignorance seems to have an extremely menacing grip, that only we as a united font or front can address, this will not be on any political manifesto, so it is people that need to find the solution to this social ignorance through pushing for changes on every avenue possible, but at the same time not breaking down the freedoms of the vast majority.

a reply to: silo13

I guess that's my problem....really with net anonymity.

Sometimes parents are not aware of the implications of a generation connected...earlier and with much force. And honest parenting I'm afraid is a thing not always seen.

I don't advocate a policing, but being genuine in online or any setting for sure.

How we as a society enforce our view point fascinates me. It's a wonder I'm in HR in a manner.

For me it's more of a what keeps all of us safe? Then the fine lines of what's good for the individual.

How to moderate downward spirals, and tucking them in is something a parent can learn, the big and small of perception still mystifies me everyday.

I busy myself with how things thrive, that's where my view point mostly sits, and it's the salt that flavours my replays . I guess a key to understanding my ambiguity.



Cheers to you and yours

a reply to: neformore

Its not a new thing, but it most certainly is getting worse.

Well yeah. There are way more people on the internet now. The dumbassery is catching up to society. There are more jerks online because there are more people online. They are also much more noticeable. One nasty comment sticks out from the thousands of bland or innocuous ones. Which is one of the reasons I think people do it.

Some of it is peer related. Some of it is certainly influenced by other forms of media (lets face it, rap/hip-hop has been usurped by misogyny)

Rap was popular before the internet became as widespread so I don't think it makes sense to point fingers its way in this case. Rap certainly hasn't become more profane or sexist since the early 90's.

Freedom of speech does not cover this stuff.

It doesn't cover threats, but if I want to say a woman dresses like a slut that's my right. Same with I would like to do x to you if it's not violent. Do I think it's crass? Yes, very much so. Draw the line at threats or else soon you won't even be able to say anything. I don't think the police should devote much time to this. If there is an actual threat, yes. If someone is being pervy or making lewd comments not at all.

So why aren't these assholes rounded on/drowned out/stepped on? Why aren't the nomal guys - the decent ones - the thinkers, the responsible ones, why aren't we reporting this in droves? Why aren't we acting like a society should do?

And who should it be reported to? If someone is getting harassed it's not my job to ride in on a mighty steed and protect the damsel from getting her feelings hurt. The internet isn't safe for anyone. Everyone is fair game. Sexual orientation, gender, age, social status, political views, race... People talk crap about straight white men all the time.

This is more of a freedom of speech issue than you're giving it credit. Short of defamation, libel or actual threats people should be allowed to say what they want. It's like walking in public. Someone is allowed to call you a bleepity bleep or comment on your appearance or make a rude remark. They are NOT allowed to say they are going to rape or kill you.

Why are you only directing this at the treatment of women? You have your SJW crazies running around saying they hate all white people, straight people, men etc. There are tons of racist comments everywhere. Republicans and Democrats are awful to each other and sites like ATS have untold amounts of anti semitism. People openly bash homosexuals everywhere. But no, poor little women, the only ones who are effected by jerks on the internet. I really want to know why you've ignored all the other nastiness and focused only on this.

I really dislike this kind of thing. Don't be racist, but white people suck. Don't be sexist, men suck. How about we focus on equal treatment for everyone and leave off specific labels?

ETA: Totally agree that it's a huge embarrassment that people are so nasty to each other online, and in no way am I trying to discount the awfulness many women have experienced. I just don't think it's fair to be so sexist and discount everyone else that's been insulted, intimidated and hurt from comments online.