If Religious Teachings On Hell Are True, God Is A Failure

a reply to: ketsuko

No I said there is free will. There is always free will. I told you - you can choose to go against God's Law, His wish which is to let your life ends as He wills.

Yeah, you said there is free will, but your version of free will is just lip service, because if you don't use you "free will" the way God wants you to, to hell ya go!

When you were a child with parents, didn't they make the rules? How many times did those rules stop you from actually breaking them? If you still were able to break your parents rules, then those rules did not take away your free will. They simply imposed consequences on certain choices you made.

If my parents were capable, they wouldn't have allowed me to have free will at all. However, my parents employed correctional discipline. The kind of hell that Christians preach has no room for correction.

God lets you choose, but He can still impose consequences on you for making certain choices.

A robber lets you choose too; "Your money or your life!" That's not a choice.

It's no different than what your parents do ... or what the government does.

Of course it is.

Despite the rules or the laws governing us, we are still free to act as we choose although the consequences imposed for making a choice and taking an action may be something we are not willing to risk.

The agreement to participate in society and follow secular laws is not the same as tip toeing around a capricious god whose laws are impossible to know or follow, who may or may not be pleased with your decisions. Who may or may not throw one's ass into hell for eternity!

a reply to: TheJourney

...unless, the construction of a hell relies on the Free Will precept...a situation where the conditions are known and the dots aren't drawn...cosmology is replete with 'don't do this, or this will happen' statements...can anyone be held accountable for having been told - or do we travel like hamsters in a cage until a light comes on over our heads?

...the best layed plans can appear to have been usurped...if not, self-usurped...

A99

a reply to: TheJourney

What are people going to do when they figure out that God lost the war in the beginning and Satin has been running things all along ??

a reply to: Battleline

Then the moniker 'Almighty' would need to be reconsidered...

A99

Karma is getting what you deserve in the end and taking responsibility for your actions. The question is should this be a place of no suffering where everyone have worked off their karma and can at least be neutral in their behavior towards each other or a place of suffering where lesser evolved souls are dumped.

If a person end up in a bad place then that soul have screwed up and no religion will make the fruits different when an objective judge tally up the karma. There is no excuse for creating suffering/karma.

The reason a soul might wanna search spiritually is to get guidance to fix the karma the soul have created to be free from any guilt. Even with guidance the bill have to be paid and the score settled.

They're not, in the literal at all, that is just childish writings. They're inner meanings and thats about transmigration and even ascension or graduation of souls.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Responsibility is an individual pursuit...sadly, many abrogate their own, that makes it easier to create scapegoats and hell-worlds to blame...

A99

Religion is a collective construct of the mind, it will keep you stuck in the material and distracts you from experiencing stillness. You are that stillness, the primordial consciousness.

a reply to: windword

So, you say. And yet, we live in a society today where the body of law is so massive and complicated that no one lawyer can actually know it all which is why they have to specialize. There are so many laws that you and I cannot get through our day to day lives without breaking at least one law of our secular society that you and I freely participate in.

Do you know all the laws and regulations of your society: federal, state and local?

Can you honestly say that you have not ever broken any of them?

Don't tell me that our society is any less unknowable or capricious than God.

a reply to: TheJourney

I outline all of this in my various threads if you are interested.

As a group of sentient beings, we work off of presuppositions that are not correct. To see the truth, you need a paradigm shift to reveal a new set of presuppositions. All of our presupposed ideas of heaven and earth are based on the misconception that we are created as new beings here on Earth and there is no past life for us to consider. This is not the truth. When we are baptized in the church, we are symbolizing something else. All the ordinances have a basis in our true condition here on Earth. Baptism is not something we do symbolically only, it is the very reason we are a living being here on Earth, and you previously made the choice to be baptized into the waters of life. Like I said, a small shift in your paradigm will change all the presuppositions you are using to frame this argument that God messed up. In reality, you messed up and are here rectifying the problem. This is God's patience with you.

Hell is a state of consciousness for those who refuse his kindness. What he offered is far greater than what we deny in ignorance and amnesia. We must find God to find the key out. God never gives up. Fire is the next baptism. It's coming. Water puts out fire, which is what water baptism is for. Repentance and salvation.

Baptism is the involution and evolution of the captive, or the one that is here in bondage. Salvation from the bondage of the human form is needed for a good reason. We are fallen beings. Earth is a refinery. We are bound to inconscience (Amnesia) while here. You cannot remember your previous estate. The purpose of this is to remove duplicity. If you seek goodness for reward, then you are seeking reward. If you seek goodness to avoid punishment, you are really trying to avoid the pain. By coming here in a state of inconscience, you have agreed to a fresh start. After this, you are judged. You remember.

In Hebrew, Amen means let it be true. It is the literal word true. We add the vowel and say Amen. In Greek, the word AMN is lamb. That's you and I here on Earth as the child of God. In Latin, there are only a few words that use this root. They tell a story about the true lamb.

AMN - Lamb
AMNi - River of life (Baptism / Mother)
AMNio - Bowl catching the blood of the lamb at sacrifice
AMNion - Sac around the baby in a mother's womb
AMNiotic - Fluid of the womb
AMNesia - You not remembering
AMNesty - God forgetting our sin
dAMNation - Taking away the lamb

The amnesia part is the one you should look at. Amnesia and amnesty are both the same Latin word. We have a past. Likely, it is a very old past and we have done something to rebel against the true God. With patience, he is giving us this opportunity.

It's a refinery:

Deuteronomy 4

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

You are the iron. God makes you clay that can be molded. You MUST be born again. Baptism is our involution into the material world to be remade.

a reply to: ketsuko

Don't tell me that our society is any less unknowable or capricious than God.

Society created God and "his" laws through religion. I don't believe that guy, running around in a pillar of fire, ordering wars and smiting people, demanding to be worshiped through animal and human sacrifices, is any account for a god, let alone "THE GOD".

(I believe) The Biblical God is a projection of many facets of man's evolving understanding of himself and his environment. Hell, like Heaven, is a state of being that resides within all of us. The Bible, Adam and Eve through to the resurrection of Jesus, is the story, told in metaphor and allegory, of us and the personal journey of each and every individual through life, as a spiritual being having a physical experience.

Each and every one of us have our own demons to battle and each and every one of us has our own personal divine spark to tap into to us assist through our quests.

a reply to: TheJourney

Human's have failed... This has nothing to do with God.

a reply to: DarknStormy

If God created humans from dust, in his image, how can their failure not be a reflection on God,(?) especially considering God is, supposedly, all knowing, and would have known of their failure before their creation.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DarknStormy

If God created humans from dust, in his image, how can their failure not be a reflection on God,(?) especially considering God is, supposedly, all knowing, and would have known of their failure before their creation.

Subscription to the Free Will mandate operating throughout, 'failure' is inherent in the process - prompting the avenue of possibilities for correction, outside of the constraints of time, form or circumstance...

Source may have known all 'outcomes' possible, and let them run their course as they will according to freedom of choice...a position of ultimate giving...as a father would do to their child...unless the father is one of the creepy uncles or aunts who never created children, but could surrogate the act and deliver by proxy...

A99

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DarknStormy

If God created humans from dust, in his image, how can their failure not be a reflection on God,(?) especially considering God is, supposedly, all knowing, and would have known of their failure before their creation.

So if God says "Do not murder" and someone goes out and murders are they a reflection of God? Or how about "Don't commit Adultery" and they go out and sleep with someones wife, are they are reflection of God? There is more to it than what your saying.. Along with the reflection of God part there are also actions which are condemned and condoned.. If we as humans want to head down the condemned path ignoring what is taught then how can we be a reflection of God when we are committing things that God has taught against?

We have severed our connection with God and too me we are on our own and can only blame ourselves when things start to go wrong. I could be wrong also and I have also asked that question to myself..It's a very tough one to answer.

a reply to: DarknStormy

So, obviously, you subscribe to the God of the Old Testament who, supposedly, gave Moses the 10 Commandments, among which is the command, Thou Shall Not Kill. But then God commands the Hebrews to stone their own disobedient children.

Is stoning a disobedient child becoming to the image of god?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DarknStormy

So, obviously, you subscribe to the God of the Old Testament who, supposedly, gave Moses the 10 Commandments, among which is the command, Thou Shall Not Kill. But then God commands the Hebrews to stone their own disobedient children.

Is stoning a disobedient child becoming to the image of god?

I was just using examples. Both of those teachings are also in the New Testament along with many others which are openly being practiced in today's world. So if we in modern society are openly committing actions which are condemned then how can we blame God when he/she/it has warned us not to commit those actions?

a reply to: DarknStormy

The only reason those teaching are in the New Testament, which I don't subscribe to either, is because Jesus quotes the Commandments.

Just because something is supported in the Bible, that doesn't make it moral. Slavery is an example.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DarknStormy

The only reason those teaching are in the New Testament, which I don't subscribe to either, is because Jesus quotes the Commandments.

Just because something is supported in the Bible, that doesn't make it moral. Slavery is an example.

There are some things I don't agree with either but I haven't got into the deeper thought about those issues. Some say slavery was promoted, others have said that some of the slavery parts were for the protection of the slaves themselves. I really can't comment on it because I haven't looked to much into it. But maybe I will now because you have brought it to my attention.

Does God not know all points in space and time? Because if so, some of your posts saying something to the effect of 'It's us making the mistakes, not God. It's not his fault we fail.' Well, disregarding that these 'mistakes' are not believing the right thing, which all of these belief systems are unprovable. But beyond that, to the main point I'm trying to make. So, when God created the world, he was already aware of everything that would happen. What would happen, if traditional religious dogma is to be believed, is that the vast majority of humans would go to hell for eternal and infinite torment. Which would either make creation a failure, or God a sadist, as previously suggested...