If Religious Teachings On Hell Are True, God Is A Failure

a reply to: TzarChasm

er...ah..what?!?

If the person is willing to commit suicide I believe.....nevermind this is ridiculous.....almost as ridiculous as a "god".

a reply to: TheJourney

So, you think it's unfair for God to set rules for His creation?

a reply to: TzarChasm


Unless free will is God's little inside joke, it's not "murder" to voluntarily take ones own life. Murder is the act of killing someone else.

originally posted by: TheJourney
I originally had this thought a number of years ago. But the thought popped up in my head during a conversation earlier today. If over half of the population goes to hell, God failed. His creating the world caused a greater amount of suffering than it did joy. So, in that case, God failed. He shouldn't have created the world. He messed up, big time. No matter WHAT religious belief is true, well under half of the population believes it. And if the doctrine is that non-believers go to hell, well over half of the population will go to hell. Thus, God failed.

I'm guessing you are a Christian believer. Having said that, let me tell you something. God does not failed. The Bible tell the story of 2 end of the world events. 1 the great flood and 2 the events in the book of revelations. In both a lot of people die, but that's does not mean that God failed. If you really open your eyes and see what Hell means, then you will understand. Like Dante said "to go up you have to go down". Hell is a place of purification, cleansing by fire.

In order for things to work out, there has to be balance. Ying/Yang, Black/White, Positive/Negative, Man/Woman, Good/Evil, etc...

a reply to: TheJourney

I think there are several misunderstandings here.

If over half of the population goes to hell, God failed.

What do you think His goal is? If it was to get everybody into heaven, He didn't even need to create an Earth, He could have just created several billion people directly in Heaven.

The Army wants Green Berets. Fewer than half of the soldiers make it, did the Army fail? The Earth, and Ft. Benning, has a purpose. You're assuming God created the Earth (I agree), and He knew that the humans in it could only know true love if they were able to reject it. Love is something that every part of you wants to do, not that you are robotically programmed to do. (OK, I understand that for most guys it seems that it's robotically programmed, but that's lust, not love.)

God knows that love, freely given love, is as good as it ever gets. So He made me, and you, and asks us "Well? What about it? You can love Me, and I will show you to greater and greater love, or you can love yourselves, and tell Me to hit the road."'

Whether it's 1%, 49%, or 99% that tell God to get lost, that's not God's failure, it's ours. We grew up, told God that we didn't want anything to do with Him ever again, grabbed the car keys, and drove off. That's our choice. He respects the choice we made, and doesn't make us stick around if we don't want to. Of course, we miss out on all the family events at home, but that's our choice.

His creating the world caused a greater amount of suffering than it did joy. So, in that case, God failed.

Only if God's goal was to make people happy all of the time. He could have done that by rewiring our brains. Heck, WE can probably do that by rewiring our brains. Do you think His goal was to make happy robots? No, we can tell the world, "I'm going to dedicate my life to (say) recreating musical instruments in use 2,000 years ago." That may make you broke and a laughingstock, it may make you rich, and acknowledged as a genius, but it is YOUR choice of what YOU want to do, and that is more valuable than anything else I can think of at the moment.

No matter WHAT religious belief is true, well under half of the population believes it. And if the doctrine is that non-believers go to hell, well over half of the population will go to hell.

The largest denomination in the world (Catholicism. Sunni is a bit smaller.) says specifically that "non-believers" aren't automatically on their way to Hell. She recognizes that many will never even hear of Jesus, or will die from various causes before they are old enough to have a mature judgment on the question. There are also other reasons for not becoming a Christian, and she explores those, relying on God's Justice and Mercy.

There's nothing in the teachings of the Catholic Church which says over half the people will go to hell. If you want it in the most simplified (and therefore most easily misunderstood) form: God loves us, He has planted in our very being a desire to return Love by following our inner spirit back to Him, it's source.

We may reject that spirit, refuse to learn more about God when we have the chance, or we learn about Him and declare "Nuts, I'm doing this on my own." That's easy enough to do, just snatch up the car keys and drive away, further and further, and further from Home.

That's not God's failure.

a reply to: Abednego

Thus the fallacy in the idea of hell being punishment forever and ever with no redemption or escape.

What's the point of that? It's a sadist/masochist's paradise.

If THIS world we are in is a sort of hell... and it surely is for all of us at times... and some of us ALL the time... and we move on in energy form to new lands and lessons, that makes a bit more sense (in the sense of spit-balling reality models, that is).

a reply to: TheJourney

Well, if there is a Creator of the universe (a.k.a. God), then judging by his creation he is a lot more complex than we are able to fathom.

Statements like "If there is a hell, then God failed" really over-simplify this complexity, and attempt to humanize an entity that is infinitely more complex than humans.

In essence, the thesis in the OP puts God in a box in which he does not fit in order to sustain what is purported.

In truth, if there is a "hell", then only God knows what it really is, and only God knows what his true intentions were for creation.

I think it makes people feel better if they can wrap their heads around something by putting it in their own box, instead of just saying "we can't know" and just... knowing thy place.

originally posted by: minusinfinity
a reply to: TzarChasm



Well if you classify suicide as murder you could say masturbation is rape.

No Sir !
Masturbation is sex with someone you really Love!

a reply to: InTheFlesh1980

In truth, if there is a "hell", then only God knows what it really is, and only God knows what his true intentions were for creation.

Why assume that there is "hell" in the first place? Why, if there IS a God, does that mean there has to be a "hell"?

originally posted by: DogMeat

originally posted by: minusinfinity
a reply to: TzarChasm



Well if you classify suicide as murder you could say masturbation is rape.

No Sir !
Masturbation is sex with someone you really Love!

LOL. (i smiled.)

True but suicide is killing the person you hate.

originally posted by: minusinfinity

originally posted by: DogMeat

originally posted by: minusinfinity
a reply to: TzarChasm



Well if you classify suicide as murder you could say masturbation is rape.

No Sir !
Masturbation is sex with someone you really Love!

LOL. (i smiled.)

True but suicide is killing the person you hate.

Have you ever been suicidal? That is a sweeping generalization that isn't necessarily true.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: TzarChasm


Unless free will is God's little inside joke, it's not "murder" to voluntarily take ones own life. Murder is the act of killing someone else.

That is a false premise. God set the standards, the Law. If the Law is that He determines when your life should end instead of you, then it is absolutely wrong to take your own life (murder yourself) even with free will. Yes, you do have the free will to go against God's standard and break His Law, but then, it is a sin, and because it is a very final sin, it becomes, by definition, mortal. You can't repent of it because you are dead.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: InTheFlesh1980
Why assume that there is "hell" in the first place? Why, if there IS a God, does that mean there has to be a "hell"?

I agree, the existence (or non-existence) of a creator (God) does not have implications regarding the existence of "hell".

My belief is that "hell" in the spiritual sense is not a place of fire and brimstone, but rather a practical metaphor for being apart from / away from / not with the creator for eternity. This separation, outside of time and space, is the existence of the soul "apart" from God... a torment because of a spiritual yearning, knowing that the creator exists but not existing in unity or harmony with him, termed "hell".

a reply to: ketsuko

That is a false premise.

According to who, you?

God set the standards, the Law. If the Law is that He determines when your life should end instead of you, then it is absolutely wrong to take your own life (murder yourself) even with free will.

Who said that only God determines when a person should die? If that were true, how could someone be guilty of murder? It HAD to have been God's will and that person's time, right? Every car accident, every act of war, every time someone was in the wrong place at the wrong time as result of not heeding God's voice, at some other time, (cause and effect) would be a death caused by someone exercising their free will over God's will? Because God's will is perfect.

What about free will? Is using your own free will a sin or not?

Yes, you do have the free will to go against God's standard and break His Law, but then, it is a sin, and because it is a very final sin, it becomes, by definition, mortal. You can't repent of it because you are dead.

Then there is no free will, according to you.

If using one's own free will to end the life that belongs to only themselves' is not a sin, then there is no need to repent.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: minusinfinity

originally posted by: DogMeat

originally posted by: minusinfinity
a reply to: TzarChasm



Well if you classify suicide as murder you could say masturbation is rape.

No Sir !
Masturbation is sex with someone you really Love!

LOL. (i smiled.)

True but suicide is killing the person you hate.

Have you ever been suicidal? That is a sweeping generalization that isn't necessarily true.

Have i thought about killing myself? Sure. Maybe. I'm past that. I won't. I have too much fun.

I don't want to die. I've thought about death and what happens when you die, who hasn't?

To tell the truth I'm afraid of death.

Most people are afraid of dying.

a reply to: InTheFlesh1980

I don't believe in a place where "god" isn't. But, then again, I don't believe in a god that is a person, or a deity that is confined by time or space, to be here or there and not here or there.