Meet God, the art-nazi

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

God first fancied a clay model of Adam in the best of artisan fashion. He made the animals like an artist and shaped the universe using the tools of the architect. Still, he forbids Moses to reproduce or make copies of any of it in art or pictures, or perhaps even cloning of cells? Probably since it could be used as evidence against him while sporting from one genocide to the other. Was Moses unable to promise God his royalties? The Good Lord going "Well then! No art for you!" and I suspect that would also be the reason why the pope never payed Michelangelo for his lost vision and his marvels. [sarcasm]Because, all he did was to copy or make bleek cover versions of the Gods' much more perfect and elaborate handiwork.[/sarcasm]

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Now that is a truly original thought.

No wonder human artists tend to have short, miserable lives. Competition...

a reply to: Astyanax

I go for sellout. Bitter since he had made it all and noone cared. Terrible cheap conceptualism he had descended into at that time. Didn't really produce anything new, only put up a sign saying, "It's All Mine™. Copyright 1000 BC all rights reserved." Moses came down, saw the beautiful gold calf and literally broke the law upon merely beholding it:

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God.

I wonder now if carvings and depictions of Jesus on the cross, which are everywhere in Christian churches, tattoos and on necklaces, is somehow exempt from that law.

Jesus, after all, was born of a human being...

originally posted by: masqua
I wonder now if carvings and depictions of Jesus on the cross, which are everywhere in Christian churches, tattoos and on necklaces, is somehow exempt from that law.

Jesus, after all, was born of a human being...

I also have wondered about that. I guess digital photos are ok, since it's only pixles and text and in effect a mosaic made from a few thousand lines of computer code, which is not a carving. Technically. I think what he wanted was to set the scale. No amateur crap, only state of the art, new stuff, cause it's boring when everyday there's nothing much new under the sun really. Just wheels and levers rehashing yesterdays work. Perhaps giving them a devil on the shoulder going "There's got to be a way".

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

This isn't about god not wanting you to create art and such, it is about idolizing images or other creations when you should only idolize or worship god.

At least that's how I see it.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

This isn't about god not wanting you to create art and such, it is about idolizing images or other creations when you should only idolize or worship god.

At least that's how I see it.

I was keeping away from this thread, but you are correct. That is exactly what it is saying.

Nice to see someone put the quote in context.

how could we carve an image of anything in heaven if we cannot see heaven? It doesn't say on earth, only above/beneath? Maybe that's the point, more like a statement that a warning? Like nothing you could make could match what we have in heaven?

Or it could be for the first people from a superior civilization that had knowledge of space and earth and were warned not to carve these things?

a reply to: sheepslayer247

Well, it's easy to say what you say living in a time like this, where churches and ministries have devised canonical interpretations of how the Church can get away with obvious fallacy with their falli and their steeples and all the other things like selling everything the church owns and give the money to the poor.

Up through the ages a wide array of kings and priests, prophets and seers have demanded priceless artifacts and artworks destroyed, Taliban blew a hole in a bleeding mountainside to destroy millennia old Buddha statues and at some point the king of Judah destroyed the Copper Serpent Moses made in the wilderness. Draw a cartoon of a person called Muhammed and you're in deep trouble with fatwas thundering from the mosqes.

The text even shows why God wants us not to deal with art, he is a Jealous God. When we paint something and exhibits it for people to worship or loathe, God reacts with being Jealous. Quite the character this God of Moses. Quite the character indeed.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Completely agree... the theological 'war' against images of all sorts is as old as the hills. What is idolatry anyways? If I painted a $10,000 USD bill, does that mean someone might worship it? What is worship? Are idolatry and worship also terms which can be debated?

If I painted a beautiful image of a human being (like the Mona Lisa), can that be idolized and worshipped?

Iconoclastic Controversy, a dispute over the use of religious images (icons) in the Byzantine Empire in the 8th and 9th centuries. The Iconoclasts (those who rejected images) objected to icon worship for several reasons, including the Old Testament prohibition against images in the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20:4) and the possibility of idolatry. The defenders of icon worship insisted on the symbolic nature of images and on the dignity of created matter.


In the early church, the making and veneration of portraits of Christ and the saints were consistently opposed. The use of icons, nevertheless, steadily gained in popularity…

www.britannica.com...

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The text even shows why God wants us not to deal with art, he is a Jealous God.

No, he's "jealous" of the worship of other gods (not really, but whatever… that's the context.)

As to images and artwork, he told Moses to make a bronze sculpture, for pete's sakes:

They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”

Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. (Numbers 21:4-9 NIV)

God's okay with images and artwork, just not with anyone worshiping them like gods (see the whole "Golden Calf" incident in Exodus.)

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Even though I'm agnostic, this seems pretty straight forward to me. Don't create any idols of what is in the sky, earth or water and worship them as a god. If you do, the people may come to hate or forget god over the generations.

If I am not mistaken, the bible also says that you should not create any image of god himself, as it is the word and relationship with god that is key and not the worship of any graven image.

I'm sure someone can correct me if I am wrong on that point.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I always thought that the "no graven images" and "idols" thing had to do with the fact that pagans were very fond of their artistic representations of deity. Much of the Old Testament is a kind of "the Phoenicians did this... so you do the opposite" where God's commands are simply whatever was not being practiced by the tribes that rivaled him. That's why you can't eat shellfish, wear blended fabrics, tattoo the body, and so on. His ban on art probably comes from the fact that the pagans loved them some art.


~ Wandering Scribe

a reply to: sheepslayer247

If I am not mistaken, the bible also says that you should not create any image of god himself, as it is the word and relationship with god that is key and not the worship of any graven image.

There sure a lot of images of "God" around for that to be true. The truth is, all Jesus worship and imagery goes against the first commandment. Ask any orthodox Jew.

originally posted by: masqua
I wonder now if carvings and depictions of Jesus on the cross, which are everywhere in Christian churches, tattoos and on necklaces, is somehow exempt from that law.

Jesus, after all, was born of a human being...

That is why many Christian denominations don't allow them. All the "iconography" mostly relates to Roman Catholicism.

originally posted by: adjensen
As to images and artwork, he told Moses to make a bronze sculpture, for pete's sakes:

Which was later destroyed by a certain king Hezekiah ==> biblehub.com... referring to the same law:

2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan).

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The text even shows why God wants us not to deal with art, he is a Jealous God.

No, he's "jealous" of the worship of other gods (not really, but whatever… that's the context.)

As to images and artwork, he told Moses to make a bronze sculpture, for pete's sakes:

They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”

Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. (Numbers 21:4-9 NIV)

God's okay with images and artwork, just not with anyone worshiping them like gods (see the whole "Golden Calf" incident in Exodus.)

"why did it have to be snakes" indy jones.

some wild times back in the day, eh?

but yes, it's the worshiping part, He doesn't like.

a reply to: tsingtao

Ok. So we're allowed to make art, but not venerate it. Is that the deal? Where does the limit go between admiring an artwork and worshipping the same in your opinion? Is it the bending of the knee? The eversoslightly lowered head? The sigh? Humour me.

originally posted by: defcon5

originally posted by: masqua
I wonder now if carvings and depictions of Jesus on the cross, which are everywhere in Christian churches, tattoos and on necklaces, is somehow exempt from that law.

Jesus, after all, was born of a human being...

That is why many Christian denominations don't allow them. All the "iconography" mostly relates to Roman Catholicism.

Though RC art is full of iconography, it's not by far as prominent as in the Bysantine or Eastern Orthodox Church. It has never stopped to amaze me how they can defend that. It's so bleeding obvious that it's in direct conflict with the core of their beliefs. If I ever meet with Moses or God, I'll keep that commandment in mind and hear what in heavens' name they were thinking.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

This isn't about god not wanting you to create art and such, it is about idolizing images or other creations when you should only idolize or worship god.

At least that's how I see it.

Which would be just about how theology juggle it around to mean, but the text is quite clear. In short: "Make no likeness of anything in the world, since God is a jealous god." It's quite interesting or rather impressive seeing how the different churches and religions treat this fundamental rule in Judaism, Christianity and Islam up along the ages.

You can get a rather accurate reading on a person's level of extremism by hearing how he interprets the second commandment. Maybe that's the intent of the commandment. An "orthodoxy gauge".