Meet God, the art-nazi

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: sheepslayer247

If I am not mistaken, the bible also says that you should not create any image of god himself, as it is the word and relationship with god that is key and not the worship of any graven image.

There sure a lot of images of "God" around for that to be true. The truth is, all Jesus worship and imagery goes against the first commandment. Ask any orthodox Jew.

Well, I didn't say there weren't any hypocrites out there when it comes to this commandment. But I do wonder if they are actually worshiping the image itself of the if it's just a symbol of their love of god.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

In short: "Make no likeness of anything in the world, since God is a jealous god."

No, it's saying do not worship any idol as if it were god. You can make any likeness or image you want, but when you worship it as god, that is against the commandment.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

In short: "Make no likeness of anything in the world, since God is a jealous god."

No, it's saying do not worship any idol as if it were god. You can make any likeness or image you want, but when you worship it as god, that is against the commandment.

It says:

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [ESV]

That is not to be mistaken a prohibition against all kinds of art figurative. Splendid! Stilleben into the bin. Portraits too. Is god really an art critic?

Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, [ESV]

Here God explains how God considers admiring art a matter of jealousy on his part. As if he is saying:

"Make no art-- lest thou bend down and worship it"

Exodus 20:5 […] visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. [ESV]

Now that's an especially sweet remark the Good LORD maketh. God would "visit your great grandfather's iniquity" and make you pay for his art dealings long after he's dead. How sympathetic of him. Maybe he's just an art critic as well as being the Architect of life, light and matter and the ivory tower of morale. It's this latter part that makes me shiver. That's not my God banning art, that's the clan-god introduced by Moses. One narrow road indeed, it's a boulder and a hard place he offers.

The "Ten commandments" were a lesson. The Damokles sword of Morale, and Moses hadn't even declared the law to Israel, before the sword fell and God proved his point. Moses and Aaron were not divine. "Nice try, but man is filthy and cannot measure himself against the divine, here are ten new commands for you, a ten step invasion-plan for the slavery and occupation of my Land, try that one instead".

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The Lord said to Moses, 2 “See, I have called by name xBezalel the son of Uri, son of yHur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have zfilled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, 4 to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze, 5 in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, to work in every craft. 6 And behold, I have appointed with him aOholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. And I have given to all able men bability, that they may make all that I have commanded you: 7 cthe tent of meeting, and dthe ark of the testimony, and ethe mercy seat that is on it, and all the furnishings of the tent, 8 fthe table and its utensils, and gthe pure lampstand with all its utensils, and hthe altar of incense, 9 and ithe altar of burnt offering with all its utensils, and jthe basin and its stand, 10 and kthe finely worked garments,1 the holy garments for Aaron the priest and the garments of his sons, for their service as priests, 11 and lthe anointing oil and the fragrant mincense for the Holy Place. According to all that I have commanded you, they shall do.”

Exodus 31:1-18

See? God is not against art, he is against idolatry and worshiping images as a god.

Source

a reply to: sheepslayer247

The difference is that the Ten Commandments don't apply for God. As long as God orders the art being made it's ok. God is thereby the designer, and the artisan is just a mere tool or servant, while Moses acts the agent and project manager, making sure the pieces are manufactured to match specification and standard, canon and doctrine.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Ok, I give up. God hates art.

What an evil man he is for giving so many of us such a sinful gift.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Now that's an especially sweet remark the Good LORD maketh. God would "visit your great grandfather's iniquity" and make you pay for his art dealings long after he's dead. How sympathetic of him.

This is a problem for those who take the Bible literally. For those of us who take it holistically, passages like this are more indicative of the ancient Hebrew writers musing as to why things turned out the way that they did. When things went south, like the Babylonian exile, it was because the Israelites had turned their backs to God and served other gods. When they turned back to God and things didn't improve right away, it was because they needed to be punished for a good long time, and thus later generations would be punished for things their ancestors did.

This is contradicted by other scripture:

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. (Ezekiel 18:20 NIV)

While the Bible is, in part, a history of the Israelites and their relationship to God, it is not purely history and should not be read in that manner, a mistake that both Fundamentalists and anti-Christians commit in spades.

We're going to be talking about this subject, Biblical literalism, on tonight's show, cradled in a discussion of Young Earth Creationism versus evolution, maybe you can have a listen and call in!

a reply to: sheepslayer247
I don't know whether God hates art, all I know is he said to Moses 3000 years ago that it made him jealous when humans worship representations of nature. Doesn't like the competition it seems. It's as if Man is here here to "till the ground from whence he was taken" and stay away from messing with the "graven image, or any likeness of any thing". Besides. Judging God's emotional biases by some remark he supposedly made in a 3000 year old text, is a bit harsh too, don't you think?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Though RC art is full of iconography, it's not by far as prominent as in the Bysantine or Eastern Orthodox Church. It has never stopped to amaze me how they can defend that.

They defend it fairly easily by noting that veneration is not the same thing as worship.

I have a picture of my late wife on the window sill in my sitting room, and I look at it during my morning meditation, because it helps me remember how much she loved me, and it helps maintain a connection to her, even though she's not here any more. I also talk to her every morning, to let her know that I love her, and ask her to pray for me.

Is that idolatry? Am I worshiping my wife or that picture, or am I just remembering her fondly and asking her to pray for me?

a reply to: adjensen

I don't know much about idolatry because of these purely doctrinal controversies evident in the very place it's introduced, it's all down to semantics and dogmatics and cannot be universally comprehended. It makes sense that the greatest artist in the universe who has made all this exercises ownership of creation. He obviously considered bronze-age man's artistic qualities inadequate to make any representations of nature worthy of worship without proper directions.

However, these days "anyone" can be a Michelangelo or a Rembrandt, whose art is not really that impressive technically, most people could learn it, but as icons of it's age and high society, as symbols for the top notch civilisation and of course the fantastic gold values these doodles represent-- they are priceless and true idols representing many things.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I don't know much about idolatry because of these purely doctrinal controversies evident in the very place it's introduced, it's all down to semantics and dogmatics and cannot be universally comprehended.

Here is a very simple and clear explanation:

Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God." (Catechism of the Catholic Church #2114)

a reply to: adjensen

What makes an object an idol or not is all about circumstance and level of moralism; rational reasoning doesnot apply, it's all down to emotion and dogma, jealousy and monopoly, something indoctrinate instinctive and primal almost. Forcing people to stay in their caste as "tillers of the ground" left to admire only what the high priest approves. That's more than half rotten, man.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: sheepslayer247

If I am not mistaken, the bible also says that you should not create any image of god himself, as it is the word and relationship with god that is key and not the worship of any graven image.

There sure a lot of images of "God" around for that to be true. The truth is, all Jesus worship and imagery goes against the first commandment. Ask any orthodox Jew.

Yes, there are more educating anecdotes about "carved images" in Judaism than there are rules for worship in general. Plenty more. There is a Norwegian word: Åndsverk, "Spirit-work". I write something unique, be it a poem or a genome, I get the credit for it, and if someone copies it without proper pay and reference it's considered plagiarism, piracy and theft. Looks to me the second commandment is evidence of early patent-copyright legislation. And that's not a joke, I'm actually serious. God shares the glory with noone.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

But I do wonder if they are actually worshiping the image itself of the if it's just a symbol of their love of god.

That really doesn't matter. Even making a symbol that represents God is a sin, according to the 1st Commandment and orthodox Judaism. And, not just this law, but ALL those silly laws about beards and mixed linens, etc. were taking very seriously by the Jews.

Also, the God of the Old Testament contradicts himself all over the Old Testament. He tells the Hebrews "Do not Kill", then sets down all kinds of laws and commandments of when and how to kill. He say not to steal or covet your neighbors things, and then sends the Hebrews to take their neighbors land and take a booty, including their virginal women.

Many biblical scholars have determined that at least two Gods are represented in the Old Testament, which most probably can be traced from the legends of Enlil and Enki.

While exploring how biblical references to figurative art may be influencing a religion, one could look to Islam for another perspective:

The essentials of Islamic art

Includes all Muslim art, not just explicitly religious art
Islamic art seeks to portray the meaning and essence of things, rather than just their physical form
Crafts and decorative arts are regarded as having full art status
Painting and sculpture are not thought of as the noblest forms of art
Calligraphy is a major art-form
Writing has high status in Islam
Writing is a significant decoration for objects and buildings
Books are a major art-form
Geometry and patterns are important
People do not appear in specifically religious art

www.bbc.co.uk...

But, there’s a difference between public and private display of iconic art...

One of the most common misconceptions about the art of the Islamic World is that it is aniconic; that is, the art does not contain representations of humans or animals. Religious art and architecture, almost from the earliest examples, such as the Dome of the Rock, the Aqsa Mosque (both in Jerusalem), and the Great Mosque of Damascus, built under the Umayyad rulers, did not include human figures and animals. However, the private residences of sovereigns, such as Qasr ‘Amra or Khirbat Mafjar, were filled with vast figurative paintings, mosaics, and sculpture.

www.khanacademy.org...:47:42.897Z/a/arts-of-the-islamic-world

a reply to: windword

Yes, and a Hasidim or any rabbinical or orthodox Jew wouldn't even think of writing the Tetragrammaton, but would typically encrypt it by replacing one of the letters in the Name with a ligature or an asterisk, changing it into G-d or YH-H and so on or replacing the name alltogether with a general noun like adonai or similar.

To many Christians, refusing to worship idols and humans is deemed satanic, supported by stories about how Satan fell from Grace after he refused to worship Adam as God's most perfect piece of art. There is a second law in Christianity and the Church-- and it violates all the commandments categorically and systematically.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Yes, and a Hasidim or any rabbinical or orthodox Jew wouldn't even think of writing the Tetragrammaton, but would typically encrypt it by replacing one of the letters in the Name with a ligature or an asterisk, changing it into G-d or YH-H and so on or replacing the name alltogether replacing it with a general noun like adonai or similar.

Yep. I started to write something about that, but it came out too discombobulated, so I just deleted it. You explained much better!

a reply to: windword

And the rabbinical explanation behind encrypting even representations for the Name of God, is typically the few lines in Genesis 4:26 "To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD." -- The "calling upon" here is considered by traditional rabbis as using the Name of God in vain-- a grave sin.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

But I do wonder if they are actually worshiping the image itself of the if it's just a symbol of their love of god.

Another image of worship of things made on earth, that should conflict with the 1st Commandment, is through the Eucharist, in which Catholics believe that the cracker and the wine actually turn into the actual (DNA) flesh and blood of the human man Jesus the Nazarene!

It defies Judaism in that it suggests mundane flesh and blood can be divine, or holy, and be contained within the body of a sinful mortal. There is much written on the perceived sinfulness of the Eucharist.

Now, I'm no fan of the 10 Commandments, and I even did a thread to exhibit my disgust for them! The 10 Commandments are Unnecessary, Irrelevant and Immoral

The Old Testament God is real problem for Christians. I don't understand why they didn't disown him from the beginning, while they still could. Now, they're hopelessly tied to him. (That would make a good thread subject! )

a reply to: windword

Sorry for hijacking, but I'd like to add my take on the Eucharist or Last Supper. The last supper is the story of "a poor man's banquet". The Torah demands all Jews prepare or attend the Passover meal. Jesus was short of lamb and wine, so he served cheap bread and water instead, explaining it would have to do, since it was all they could manage to find, thus fulfilling the Passover obligation through rhetorics and loyalty. There was nothing magic in the Last Supper, just managing to turn a loaf of dry bread into the finest meal through imagination.

Passover in Auschwitz and all you'd might've managed to get for eating was perhaps a strip of bacon to the soldiers' amusement. With the power of imagination and forgiveness, that strip of pork's arse could turn into the finest passover meal ever to have been experienced. Just sayin'.

There may be an assumption that confuses 'gods'...a god that anthropomorphises itself, does not sound like anything resembling supreme...thus the 'jealousy' thing, oh...and the '...any other gods but me...' thing...false alarm on this one...some upper management types drank too much caffeine and altered the mission statement...gods got marooned, were made incommunicado, made new rules...the rest is history...

A99