Ebola Kills By Way of Instant Scurvy? Possible Treatment Indicated?

More info at the link, but the critical part is excerpted here. This may point to a treatment for Ebola - early and massive doses of IV Vitamin C to counteract the burn rate Ebola causes of Vit C in the body and allow the immune system to fight it off? May also account for the survivors - maybe those with higher Vitamin C stores to start with and better nutritional status?

Ebola - Instant Scurvy?

Ebola is probably the best known of a class of viruses known as hemorrhagic fever viruses. The Cecil Textbook of Medicine notes that these diseases are characterized by capillary fragility, which translates to easy bleeding, that can frequently lead to severe shock and death. These diseases also tend to consume and/or destroy the platelets, which play an integral role in blood clotting. The clinical presentation of these viral diseases is similar to scurvy, which is also characterized by capillary fragility and a tendency to bleed easily. Characteristic skin lesions develop, which are actually multiple tiny areas of bleeding into the skin that surround the hair follicles. some cases even include bleeding into already healed scars.

In the classic form of scurvy, which evolves very slowly from the gradual depletion of vitamin C body stores, the immune system will be sufficiently compromised for infection to claim the patient’s life before the extensive hemorrhage that occurs after all vitamin C stores have been completely exhausted.

Ebola virus and the other viral hemorrhagic fevers are much more likely to cause hemorrhaging before any other fatal infection has a chance to become established. This is because the virus so rapidly and totally metabolizes and consumes all available vitamin C in the bodies of the victims that an advanced stage of scurvy is literally produced after only a few days of the disease.

The scurvy is so complete that the blood vessels generally cannot keep from hemorrhaging long enough to allow an infective complication to develop. In addition, the viral hemorrhagic fevers typically only take hold and reach epidemic proportions in those populations that would already be expected to have low body stores of vitamin C, such as are found in many of the severely malnourished Africans.

In such individuals, an infecting hemorrhagic virus will often wipe out any remaining vitamin C stores before the immune systems can get the upper hand and initiate recovery. When the vitamin C stores are rapidly depleted by large infecting doses of an aggressive virus, the immune system gets similarly depleted and compromised.

Wow.....excellent find. Wouldn't that be a blow to big pharma.....all you have to do is buy some packs of Emergen-C and it's like knocking out the common cold.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

More likely MASSIVE doses of IV - C; it's done sometimes now for cancer and flu but it's like pulling teeth to get it because it's not 'standard of care'. Cheap though, maybe $100 per IV bag and the Vitamin C, maybe 50 grams a bag, is cheap enough also and easy to source. Hard to know how much would be required per patient.

I read about this on the Deep Web a few days ago. The massive doses of ascorbic acid required would be in the tens or hundreds of thousands of milligrams per day depending on efficacy of an individual's absorption rate. At those doses the treatment may cause more damage than the disease, however, at a more moderate "mega-dose" of say 5,000 to 10,000 milligrams per day one may be able to stave off the worst effects of the disease and give themselves a fighting chance.

I'm not sure how much credence I lend this theory but I am a firm believer in taking 2-4 grams per day of Vit C. It does wonders.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Not really as big pharma dont have much to do with ebola anyway. No profit to be had from a backwater jungle infection that mainly kills poor people.

And i wont even get into the silly Vit C idea. Theres more factors than that. Not to mention that source website about as accurate as a wiki page written by a retarded 5 year old. Its nothing but paranoid gibberish with massive scientific errors.

Great Post Op...! Certainly, the best Ebola post, ever..

Now, dump this whole idea and ramp up the meds and vaccines... dispense with any idea that there could be another safe solution...

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Not really as big pharma dont have much to do with ebola anyway. No profit to be had from a backwater jungle infection that mainly kills poor people.

And i wont even get into the silly Vit C idea. Theres more factors than that.

Yeah, Scurvy has a totally different pathophysiology than Ebola.
And if you enjoy your kidneys, mega doses of Vit.C might be something you want to avoid.

a reply to: crazyewok

Yes... that is why our saintly friends at Monsanto have purchased the company researching the vaccine.... Monsanto purchases research companies because of their dedication to helping mankind (not)....

Certainly better than GM Tobacco grown cures! Thanks for sharing.

a reply to: 59demon

If you are trying to hit high in vivo dose levels.... take a look at 1Gram L-Lysine combination with the Vitamin C... increases invivo absorption.. Linus Pauling won a Nobel for studies related to this... and its effect on both Cancer and Heart disease...

originally posted by: Imperium Americana

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Not really as big pharma dont have much to do with ebola anyway. No profit to be had from a backwater jungle infection that mainly kills poor people.

And i wont even get into the silly Vit C idea. Theres more factors than that.

Yeah, Scurvy has a totally different pathophysiology than Ebola.
And if you enjoy your kidneys, mega doses of Vit.C might be something you want to avoid.

How do you know that mega doses of Vitamin C are 'silly' unless you try it? The kill rate is such that anything is better than nothing.

And if your entire body is melting down via instant scurvy, or something that looks EXACTLY like it, your last concern is your kidneys, which won't really be bothered that much anyways... what gives you the idea that high dose Vitamin C is toxic to the kidneys? Most animals besides humans and a few others saturate their tissues with Vitamin C naturally, and their kidneys seem to work fine. Linus Pauling determined that the great apes manufactured the equivalent of 10 to 50 grams of Vitamin C naturally daily, IIRC, and that's what he based his human recommendations on. They also seem to be immune to some of these jungle based viruses.

The idea here would be to treat a patient at the point they first present, before you even knew what you were dealing with, since the initial symptoms of Ebola aren't much different from a flu. Only possible exposures would tell you what you were dealing with (and if you know you've been exposed to something, so much the better with early intervention). It would give you a fighting chance. Waiting a few days would be too late, the kidneys and everything else would be in full, literal, meltdown.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Vasa Croe

And i wont even get into the silly Vit C idea. Theres more factors than that. Not to mention that source website about as acurate as a wiki page written by a retarded 5 year old. Its nothing but paranoid gibberish with massive scientific errors.

Perhaps you'd like to point out the 'massive scientific errors' for our edification??

originally posted by: R_Clark
a reply to: 59demon

If you are trying to hit high in vivo dose levels.... take a look at 1Gram L-Lysine combination with the Vitamin C... increases invivo absorption.. Linus Pauling won a Nobel for studies related to this... and its effect on both Cancer and Heart disease...

Thanks for that. I've read some of Pauling's bio and works but haven't delved too deep into that rabbit hole just yet. I know taking 2-4 grams of Vitamin C per day when I have a cold kills it pretty quickly.

I would be interested in seeing some scientific studies on pathophysiology of both scurvy and ebola as well as some studies on vitamin C. Does anyone have a subscription to a scholastic journal source that can post some info?

originally posted by: signalfire
More info at the link, but the critical part is excerpted here. This may point to a treatment for Ebola - early and massive doses of IV Vitamin C to counteract the burn rate Ebola causes of Vit C in the body and allow the immune system to fight it off? May also account for the survivors - maybe those with higher Vitamin C stores to start with and better nutritional status?

Ebola - Instant Scurvy?

Great find, Signalfire. S&F See this ATS thread on Vit C:

“I make my own liposomal vit C. This stuff is frickin AMAZING!!!!!”

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I swear that Liposomal Vitamin C is the only thing that's keeping me alive.

The naysayers have already shown up on this thread to p**s on this idea.

AV

originally posted by: Imperium Americana

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Not really as big pharma dont have much to do with ebola anyway. No profit to be had from a backwater jungle infection that mainly kills poor people.

And i wont even get into the silly Vit C idea. Theres more factors than that.

Yeah, Scurvy has a totally different pathophysiology than Ebola.
And if you enjoy your kidneys, mega doses of Vit.C might be something you want to avoid.

Yes. This nonsense was brought up in another thread. Bleeding is the only similarity and some silly person extrapolated that, since there is bleeding present in both, then they must be connected.

Vitamin C is an essential component of collagen. When you do not have enough vitamin C, your collagen is deficient in both quantity and quality. Bones don't form well, you have rickets and easier fracturing. Collagen is also a vital component of blood vessel walls and they are weak and poorly repaired without it. It is that weakness that causes bleeding in scurvy.

Ebola creates a septic cascade that uses up your clotting factors and destroys hepatocytes that make them.

Two very different mechanisms.

originally posted by: signalfire

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Vasa Croe

And i wont even get into the silly Vit C idea. Theres more factors than that. Not to mention that source website about as acurate as a wiki page written by a retarded 5 year old. Its nothing but paranoid gibberish with massive scientific errors.

Perhaps you'd like to point out the 'massive scientific errors' for our edification??

Let start with the first paragraph shall we?

Ebola – Catastrophic pandemic Follow @TheWatchers_ Posted by The Watcher on August 04, 2014 in categories Epidemics, Featured stories If you are not taking the threat of Ebola seriously, you are making a big mistake. President Barack Obama takes it very seriously and has just signed an amendment to an executive order allowing him to mandate the apprehension and detention of Americans who merely show signs of “respiratory illness.”

Ebola is not classed as a “respiratory illness.”

This video says that merely the suspicion of a limited Ebola outbreak in the United States would give the green light for federal authorities to seize draconian powers and detain Americans not even infected with the Ebola virus.

Really im to trust a article that uses random youtube videos as sources?

On this USA video report they say that most people are going to die and in the same breath say, it is not that contagious. The media is giving confusing signals.

Not really if you understood simple microbiology there's a difference between mortality rates and ease of infection. HIV kills most that catch it and is not very contagious. The common cold is extremely contagious but not deadly at all.

Alarmingly, as the Public Health Agency of Canada explains, "1 – 10 aerosolized organisms are sufficient to cause infection in humans." That sounds extremely contagious meaning if a badly infected patient gets on a plane or bus and sneezes or vomits it’s all over for many people.

Again wrong. Ebola Zaire has not been shown to infect humans via airborne transmission. And IF it does its not very effective at it. That "1 – 10 aerosolized organisms" is from droplets of vomit or blood, you have to be standing right next to the patient to be infected. Theres a huge difference between that and being truly airborne.

It all starts with these irrefutable facts about air travel: 1) All passengers are confined to the same enclosed space. 2) All passengers are breathing THE SAME AIR. 3) Ebola can become airborne via very small particles in the air, and just a single Ebola virus riding on a dust particle is sufficient to infect a human being. 4) Following the flight, infected passengers then intermingle with thousands of other people at the airport, each going to a different unique destination somewhere else across the country or around the world. 5) The speed of air travel vastly out-paces the speed of governments being able to deploy infectious disease prevention teams.”

Again Ebola does NOT spread in this fashion. It does not mingle with dust particles in the air or travel around air conditioners.

Ebola virus infection runs its course within 14 to 21 days. As the infection progresses cytokines are released contributing to exaggerated inflammatory responses that are not protective. Damage to the liver, combined with massive viremia, leads to disseminated intravascular coagulopathy. The virus eventually compromises vascular integrity. The terminal stages of Ebola virus infection usually include diffuse bleeding and hypotensive shock that accounts for Ebola fatalities.[1]

The haemorrhaging symptoms only appear in about 40% of cases. 60% do not get the dramatic symptoms.

It then goes on to say:

Increases in the levels of inflammatory cytokines IFN-γ, IFN-α, interleukin-2 (IL-2), IL-10, and tumor necrosis factor alpha were associated with fatality from Ebola hemorrhagic fever

So what does this have to do with vitamin C? Not a lot.


Ebola end symptoms just mimic Scurvy s symptoms. That does not mean that Vitmin C will "cure" it.

In the case of Ebola there is no vaccine and no treatment to promote but that does not mean we will not be surprised after a period of time that they do come out with a vaccine that they say will work but does not, just like a regular flu vaccine with toxic mercury included inside.

O look anti vaccine BS. It doesnt mention Smallpox/Polio and tetanus Vaccines that have saved millions of lives?

No cause of the hit and miss of flu all vaccines are "baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad"

Ebola exists and it kills like the bubonic plague.

The bubonic plague and Ebola are not even remotely similar. As a Microbiologist myself I want to cry at this statement.

originally posted by: signalfire

originally posted by: Imperium Americana

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Not really as big pharma dont have much to do with ebola anyway. No profit to be had from a backwater jungle infection that mainly kills poor people.

And i wont even get into the silly Vit C idea. Theres more factors than that.

Yeah, Scurvy has a totally different pathophysiology than Ebola.
And if you enjoy your kidneys, mega doses of Vit.C might be something you want to avoid.

How do you know that mega doses of Vitamin C are 'silly' unless you try it? The kill rate is such that anything is better than nothing.

And if your entire body is melting down via instant scurvy, or something that looks EXACTLY like it, your last concern is your kidneys, which won't really be bothered that much anyways... what gives you the idea that high dose Vitamin C is toxic to the kidneys? Most animals besides humans and a few others saturate their tissues with Vitamin C naturally, and their kidneys seem to work fine. Linus Pauling determined that the great apes manufactured the equivalent of 10 to 50 grams of Vitamin C naturally daily, IIRC, and that's what he based his human recommendations on. They also seem to be immune to some of these jungle based viruses.

The idea here would be to treat a patient at the point they first present, before you even knew what you were dealing with, since the initial symptoms of Ebola aren't much different from a flu. Only possible exposures would tell you what you were dealing with (and if you know you've been exposed to something, so much the better with early intervention). It would give you a fighting chance. Waiting a few days would be too late, the kidneys and everything else would be in full, literal, meltdown.

Honestly if people believe Ebola is the same as Scurvy and Vit C is a cure for all the I say let them remove themselves from the human gene pool with this alternative woo woo BS.

originally posted by: 59demon

Thanks for that. I've read some of Pauling's bio and works but haven't delved too deep into that rabbit hole just yet. I know taking 2-4 grams of Vitamin C per day when I have a cold kills it pretty quickly.

I would be interested in seeing some scientific studies on pathophysiology of both scurvy and ebola as well as some studies on vitamin C. Does anyone have a subscription to a scholastic journal source that can post some info?

As you already know, Dr. Linus Pauling was a Nobel Prize winner and a graduate of Oregon State University (OSU).

OSU puts out "The Linus Pauling Institute Research Newsletter" -- they have a website:

lpi.oregonstate.edu...

Oregon State University
307 Linus Pauling Science Center
Corvallis, OR 97331

Email: [email protected]

voice 541-737-5075
fax 541-737-5077

They just might be able to lead you to other scientific sources.

AV

originally posted by: 59demon

originally posted by: R_Clark
a reply to: 59demon

If you are trying to hit high in vivo dose levels.... take a look at 1Gram L-Lysine combination with the Vitamin C... increases invivo absorption.. Linus Pauling won a Nobel for studies related to this... and its effect on both Cancer and Heart disease...

Thanks for that. I've read some of Pauling's bio and works but haven't delved too deep into that rabbit hole just yet. I know taking 2-4 grams of Vitamin C per day when I have a cold kills it pretty quickly.

I would be interested in seeing some scientific studies on pathophysiology of both scurvy and ebola as well as some studies on vitamin C. Does anyone have a subscription to a scholastic journal source that can post some info?

The Pathophysiology of Scurvy

Vitamin C is functionally most relevant for the triple-helix formation of collagen; a vitamin C deficiency results in impaired collagen synthesis. The typical pathologic manifestations of vitamin C deficiency, including poor wound healing, are noted in collagen-containing tissues and in organs and tissues such as skin, cartilage, dentine, osteoid, and capillary blood vessels. Pathologic changes in affected children and adults are a function of the rate of growth of the affected tissues; hence, the bone changes are often observed only in infants during periods of rapid bone growth. Defective collagen synthesis leads to defective dentine formation, hemorrhaging into the gums, and loss of teeth. Hemorrhaging is a hallmark feature of scurvy and can occur in any organ. Hair follicles are one of the common sites of cutaneous bleeding.

emedicine.medscape.com...


EBola:

ZEBOV infection partially impairs the function
of both cells, so that they are able to initiate inflammation
and coagulation, but cannot prevent the
systemic spread of virus. In consequence, additional
target cells are attracted to sites of infection, and virus
disseminates to resident macrophages and DC in tissues
throughout the body, causing massive release of
proinflammatory mediators and vasoactive substances
(Hensley, Young, Jahrling, & Geisbert, 2002). These
host responses produce a syndrome of refractory hypotension
and DIC resembling septic shock, which results
from the response of the same cell populations
to endotoxin and other bacterial products (Bray &
Mahanty, 2003). The extensive tissue injury caused by
replication of ZEBOV in macrophages and DC and in
parenchymal cells of the liver and other organs also
plays a major role in fatal disease (Fig. 2). Natural killer
(NK) cells and T lymphocytes remain uninfected, but
undergo apoptosis, further impairing immune function

www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA434710

a reply to: NavyDoc
Exactly.

Just because some looks on the surface the same doesn't mean the biochemistry behind is too.