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Well... I found so much evidence of Ukraine’s provocations, against ethnic Russians, that it clearly merited an entirely new discussion (this topic, long-predates, anything to do with Flight MH-17). But its a long essay, so for shorter readers, you can skip to “List of 2014 Provocations”.
tsurfer2000h: And the Russian are any better, and where is the evidence they are so racist and violence proned.
This partly explains, why many Ukrainians initially welcomed Hitler’s occupation, volunteered to fight for Hitler en.wikipedia.org... and even went on to man many of the Nazi gas chambers and other death camps.
By the end of 1933, nearly 25 percent of the population of the Ukraine, including three million children, had perished. The Kulaks as a class were destroyed and an entire nation of village farmers had been laid low. With his immediate objectives now achieved, Stalin allowed food distribution to resume inside the Ukraine and the famine subsided. However, political persecutions and further round-ups of 'enemies' continued unchecked in the years following the famine, interrupted only in June 1941 when Nazi troops stormed into the country. Hitler's troops, like all previous invaders, arrived in the Ukraine to rob the breadbasket of Europe and simply replaced one reign of terror with another. www.historyplace.com...
Hitler was politically impressed, but he personally always regarded them (because their ethnicity) as genetically inferior, human beings. Chances are he wouldn’t have used them at all, had he not lost so many troops.
The people went into the gas chamber without resistance. Those who were at the end, the Ukrainian guards had to push inside. I personally saw how the Ukrainians pushed the people with their rifle butts...
The gas chambers were closed for about thirty minutes. Then Schmidt stopped the gassing, and the two Ukrainians who were in the engine room opened the gas chambers from the other side. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
April 2014: Ukrainian nationalists in western Ukrainian city of Lviv have held a rally in commemoration of a Nazi SS division created in 1943, despite a ban asking them to stop.
One attendee said "This march is to commemorate the Galician division, which had nothing to do with the divisions of the Waffen SS. Their oath of allegiance was for Ukraine. They are our heroes and that is why we honour them every year." www.itv.com...
Up to 10yrs’ jail for dual citizenship: Ukrainian bill targets tens of thousands
A bill floating in Ukrainian parliament seeks tougher sanctions against holders of dual citizenship, which is forbidden in the country. Under the legislation, violators could be punished by a prison term of up to 10 years. rt.com...
28 Feb: Ukraine’s swift abolition of the law allowing the country’s regions to make Russian a second official language has worried European MPs and officials, and has been condemned outright as a “violation of ethnic minority rights” by Russian diplomats.
The European Parliament has approved a resolution on Ukraine, which among other things calls on the country’s MPs and the new government to respect the rights of minorities, particularly when it comes to the use of languages.
3rd March 2014: KIEV, March 3 (RIA Novosti) – Ukraine’s acting president Oleksandr Turchynov said Monday that he would not approve the parliament’s decision to repeal the 2012 law allowing more than one official language until there is legislation to replace it.
“Although the [2012] language law was unbalanced, I will not sign into law the parliament’s decision to repeal it until a new bill to protect all languages is passed,” he said.
Ukraine is split between the largely Ukrainian-speaking West and mostly Russian-speaking East, although many speak both or a mixture of the two known as “surzhyk.”
The parliament in Kiev voted last month to repeal the law that allowed regions to adopt more than one language for official purposes if they were spoken by at least 10 percent of the local population. For the Russian language, just under half of Ukrainian regions meet this standard.
The decision to revoke the law drew condemnation from Russia and sparked protests in several Russian-speaking Ukrainian regions. en.ria.ru...
Feb 2014: The decision of the new Ukrainian authorities to repeal a law giving regional rights to minority languages is a bad move, said Luxembourg Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn. He also criticized a bill which would ban Russian media in Ukraine. rt.com...
It’s not one lone guy from Sweden who is fighting them, but groups of Nazis & like-minded fascist
16 July 2014: The appearance of far-right activists, both foreign and home-grown, among the Ukrainian volunteers fighting in east Ukraine is causing unease.
Mikael Skillt is a Swedish sniper, with seven years' experience in the Swedish Army and the Swedish National Guard. He is currently fighting with the Azov Battalion, a pro-Ukrainian volunteer armed group in eastern Ukraine. He is known to be dangerous to the rebels: reportedly there is a bounty of nearly $7,000 (£4,090; 5,150 euros) on his head. www.bbc.co.uk...
July 2014: UN rights watchdog confirms discrimination of Russian minority in Ukraine
UN Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Shimonovich has confirmed discrimination of Russian-language citizens in Ukraine, but told the United National Security Council on Wednesday that the instances were sporadic. Russia earlier criticized Shimonovich for turning a blind eye to murders, mass executions, tortures, abductions and assaults on journalists and rights activists, politically motivated incarcerations, appalling incidents of racist, anti-Russian and anti-Semitic nature that are perpetrated in the post-coup Ukraine with tacit approval from the regime.
Read more: voiceofrussia.com...
The ill-thought attempt to cover up MH-17 (that's at least known about) was when "Ukrainian State Security" published a badly edited video (which according to on-screen times within video, include the use of backwards in time travel!) www.bbc.co.uk... in order to make it appear more likely, the resistance did do it (so be it accidentally).
MrSpad:The rebels shoot down of Malaysian airliner is turning into a debacle with their ill though out attempt to cover it up.
Ah... You mean just like Syria? I.e. where two groups of foreign powers, finance and arm two warring sides so that:
Mr Spud: Still if the rebels continue to mishandle this it may just be enough for somebody to start suppling Ukraine with some real aid.
Not really... Russia is a powerful nation, and this conflict is a mere side show, it's simply a symptom of U.S planning becoming ridiculously ambitious.
Mr Spud: And that would be a disaster for Russia who would be forced to commit even more volunteers since local ones are not interested.
Actually Russia has no intention of repeating what it once did in Afghanistan (and which America also copied there, and in Iraq) which is called “occupying a people who don’t wish to be occupied”.
Mr Spud It is always the same formula find a small group of people who want to seperate. Send in arms, advisors, and masses of propaganda. Fighting breaks out. Russia secures a small strategic chunk of a country.
originally posted by: Liberal1984
Actually Russia has no intention of repeating what it once did in Afghanistan (and which America also copied there, and in Iraq) which is called “occupying a people who don’t wish to be occupied”.
Mr Spud It is always the same formula find a small group of people who want to seperate. Send in arms, advisors, and masses of propaganda. Fighting breaks out. Russia secures a small strategic chunk of a country.
Russia’s interest is routed to those people who wish to be Russian.
Because: Just as there isn’t money or wealth (for America or indeed any country today) in ruling over those who reject their ruler, the same logic applies against Ukraine’s present attempts to win over Eastern Ukraine by force.
It didn’t always used to be this way: Once upon a time, there were vast differences in war technology, and this enabled European Empires to create profits out of ruling the rest of the world –nearly always against its will.
Imagine If…
Putin was to ignore the maltreatment of Russians in Ukraine, and so cut off all assistance (be this from government or in some cases civilians) then perhaps Kiev could rule over East Ukraine a little longer? But so be it at a very bloody price. Kiev’s ideological contempt for Russian stock, was always going to ignite big trouble.
War would have been avoided (if instead of trying to bolster their cheap, domestic, support from stupid nationalists i.e. by deliberately provoking ethnic Russians) Kiev had instead offered friendship. But too late now…
War has started, and with it: Crimes on both sides…
Neither side is going to run out of armaments or foreign money anytime soon. But eventually it will be realized the only way this war finishes is when self-determination is allowed to run its natural course. I don’t see this being a short wait, and concur it’s a disaster for all Ukraine.
But equally it’s only a side show for America & Russia. America’s been making trouble (e.g. by dreaming in artful fantasy, it could close Russia’s bases in both Crimea & Syria) but the Russian bear has woken up, and is now growling back.
And whatever America does, it does nothing to not reduce Putin’s domestic support. There’s going to be no recession, and even if there was… Russians will turn to their own TV screens to find out who the enemy is.
True enough: Billionaires carry weight in Russia, but Russian billionaires understand they have enough wealth to live comfortably without getting on the wrong side of Putin.
Furthermore: Russia (as in public, politicians & millionaires) understand that if Russia did allow itself to quietly surrender e.g. Assad’s Syria, in exchange for resumption in trade, then it may as well bow to all other Western demands too –after all surely we need only threaten sanctions again?
So it’s the world of craziness to think anything like that will happen. As for America & Britain: We’re feeling strong again, so are on the offensive. Costly though this (little) dispute with Russia may be, it’s not like it’s going to cost any political leader here, their election prospects, either.
But Russia can actually be quite annoying in other ways (more than I care to list) but a most potent way being arms exports to other countries –especially whenever we’d rather they didn’t possess sophisticated equipment.
Who said the Cold War was over? Someone’s clearly screwed that peace up!!
is that suppose to be a joke? The Russian "base" in Syria is a single working pier (the other is broken down and nobodt has bothered to fix it over the years) and a supply room with grand total staff of 4 people. It is just like the US supply pier in Brazil. And as for Russian Naval bases in Crimea? It does not matter where the Russians part their old navy in the Black Sea so long as NATO controls the straights those ship have to sit in port of be sunk.
dreaming in artful fantasy, it could close Russia’s bases in both Crimea & Syria
originally posted by: MrSpad
East Ulraine has really not been fighting all that hard. Considering the amount of weapons and "volunteers" that have been flowing over the Russian border vs the relative weakness of Ukraines military units in the area, it would seem most of the population is more interested in just staying out of it while Russia and Ukraine fight it out over the area. The rebels shoot down of Malaysian airliner is turning into a debacle with their ill though out attempt to cover it up. A simple yes we made a mistake and will fully cooperate but, it is a warzone and not much would have come of it. Instead they have handled it in the worst way possible. Granted Russia is already isolated and deeply distrusted by most of the world so it is not its reputation can get any worse. Still if the rebels continue to mishandle this it may just be enough for somebody to start suppling Ukraine with some real aid. And that would be a disaster for Russia who would be forced to commit even more volunteers since local ones are not interested.
There’s a significant difference between fighting to stop people who are already part of your country, leaving your country (i.e. Chechnya) and fighting to make people who don’t wish to be part of your country, part of your country. Nowhere is Russia doing this last one.
Mr Spud: Please lets drop the helping people who want to be Russian BS. A large chunk of southern Russia has been fighting not to be Russia.
That’s not true. (As already explained) there’s long been, significant tensions, between East Ukraine (and ethnic Russians generally) with other Ukrainians.
Mr Spud: Nobody was asking to get out of Ukraine in the Crimea or in the East until Russian forces and their puppets in the area decided it was time.
Sorry for over-simplifying Syria’s situation. It’s not simply that Russia actually has several military facilities in Syria, but far more significant that Assad’s government is allied to Iran, and Russia, and close to China.
Mr Spud: is that suppose to be a joke? The Russian "base" in Syria is a single working pier (the other is broken down and nobodt has bothered to fix it over the years) and a supply room with grand total staff of 4 people.
The Black Sea is totally land locked, and Russia dominates all. Yes countries like Georgia have 3 miles of sea from their shores, but this doesn’t exactly configure as a comparable match.
Mr Spud: It does not matter where the Russians part their old navy in the Black Sea so long as NATO controls the straights those ship have to sit in port of be sunk.
Because people aren’t primarily motivated by economics. What can worry Russian Ukrainian’s even more that, is a government that’s e.g. supported by people who commemorate those died fighting for the Nazis (precisely because they died fighting ethnic Russians!).
Mr Spud: The simple thing of course to look at the nations the went with West and those that stuck with Russia and how they have faired since the end of the Cold War. Why would anyone want to stick with the Russians?
Consider this: Ukraine's economy is smaller than it was in 1992, shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union. At the time, Ukraine and Poland had similar-sized economies, but Poland's economy is now twice as big as Ukraine's.
The IMF estimates that the Ukrainian economy shrank 0.3% last year after barely growing in 2012.
Ukraine has a lot of coal mining, especially around the eastern city of Donetsk, as well as ageing heavy industry including shipbuilding, steel and arms. However, because many industries are so energy-inefficient, they are highly dependent on imports of Russian gas, which have been heavily subsidised. www.bbc.co.uk...
Russia raises gas prices for Ukraine by 80 percent uk.reuters.com...