Cleopatra did not commit suicide

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

by the way, did you watch the video?

I've seen it before. It's possible that Octavian was behind the murder, but we need to be very careful about drawing any firm conclusions based on modern attitudes. Don't forget that Cleopatra and Marcus Antonius had been defeated by Octavian (or rather, as Octavian was a crappy general but a great politician) by Agrippa. Antonius killed himself.
Now, you have to remember that Octavian had plans for Cleopatra. He was going to drag her back to Rome and force her to take part in his Triumph, after which she would have been dropped into the Tullianum prison and garrotted. This would have been utterly humiliating. So suicide is a plausible theory in my view.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

well here's the problem, all of that, is from octavian's perspective.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

well here's the problem, all of that, is from octavian's perspective.

No, it was common practice to drag defeated foreign rulers back to Rome for a Triumph. When Caesar triumphed Vercingetorix was paraded around before all of Rome and was then garrotted. A Triumph was the ultimate public celebration that a Roman politician could enjoy, and Octavian would have wanted to underline his new power in every possible way. Killing Cleopatra makes no political sense. Displaying her at a Triumph would have been a very powerful statement of his authority. As it was he had to make do with an effigy.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

no, what i'm saying is, what he supposedly did is from his perspective. like the smear campaign he did, for example. and he became the emperor after that, right? that's kinda like saying, stalin was honest about his political enemies and completely transparent about his activities

Here's another one that doesn't follow pat brown's theory but it does suggest that octavian's version of things was more than a little skewed.

the video ^ is evidence that, contrary to popular belief that pre-christian rome was woman friendly, rome was not socially advanced nor woman friendly. it was just modern propaganda and the same can be said of pre-christian egypt. both cultures seem to have had a problem with the idea of women in leading roles or women who were as sexually active as their male counterparts, even if they weren't. apparently the topic of sex, women and power, was every bit as misogynist in the pagan empires of the world as the christian ones.

might explain why the usa still hasn't had a female president and when we do get potential candidates, they are easily disenfranchised just by referring to their sexual escapades, pms or stupidity. of course, we haven't been given too many stellar choices, but the ones who appear to have a pretty clean track record are also not easily compromised and so don't make it anywhere near the seats of power. it's your own fault that history will reveal, 2000 years after christ said men and women were equal, you still find the lamest excuses not to vote for a female president. 2000 years. it's hopeless. (this is not an endorsement of hillary clinton, it's just a statement of observable facts)

originally posted by: undo

might explain why the usa still hasn't had a female president and when we do get potential candidates, they are easily disenfranchised just by referring to their sexual escapades, pms or stupidity.

You think stupidity isn't a good reason not to vote for someone to be president regardless of their gender? Interesting.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: undo

might explain why the usa still hasn't had a female president and when we do get potential candidates, they are easily disenfranchised just by referring to their sexual escapades, pms or stupidity.

You think stupidity isn't a good reason not to vote for someone to be president regardless of their gender? Interesting.

no, i'm saying stupidity is easily sold about women, even today when we have female rocket scientists, chemists, doctors, surgeons, linguists, mayors, governors and etc, yet the moment a woman gets anywhere near the white house lawn, she loses several iq points. you know what i'm talking about.

cleopatra is a greek girl, she never suicide.

They created that myth, but she had the same fate as Great Alexandros. A jew poison her.

Jews or anyway, I dont call them jews, ab blood type... Because there are many people who are AB but actually are not jews, so maybe jews is a kind of cult or group of people who wish to call themselves jews.

Anyway, a slave moved into her room with a basket full of fig, because she loved them. The guards stopped him and they demmanded to check the basket with figs... They found nothing and this slave also offered 2 figs to the guards.

At that time, Cleopatra finished her bath and her (female helpers) prepared her dinner. When she eat these figs she died.

Toxicologists say, that this slave poisoned specific figs and she had a very fast and without pain death. Instead the myth with the snake is wrong. Egyptian cobras, gives you paralyze for many hours and a painful death.

Its the same incident with Great Alexandros. With his food/drinks and dont forget that Cleopatra was the daughter of Great Alexandros high commander. She didnt wanted to leave Greece and they forced her to rule Egypt. She was the most appropriate.

Plutarch Historian/philosopher gives that records. www.greek-language.gr...

you can translate with a translator the paragraph 85,1

They created this myth with the snake, those who love myths. But Ceasar and his entire group of soldiers, never found any snake or posion bottle or anything that leads into suicide. And it was a 99% a jew, because it was known how Great Alexandros died and they killed Kleopatra with the same way.

originally posted by: Ploutonas
cleopatra is a greek girl, she never suicide.

They created that myth, but she had the same fate as Great Alexandros. A jew poison her.

Jews or anyway, I dont call them jews, ab blood type... Because there are many people who are AB but actually are not jews, so maybe jews is a kind of cult or group of people who wish to call themselves jews.

how exactly do you know the blood type of anyone who lived over 2000 years ago? the entire premise comes off as purely speculative insanity.

Anyway, a slave moved into her room with a basket full of fig, because she loved them. The guards stopped him and they demmanded to check the basket with figs... They found nothing and this slave also offered 2 figs to the guards.

At that time, Cleopatra finished her bath and her (female helpers) prepared her dinner. When she eat these figs she died.

source?

Toxicologists say, that this slave poisoned specific figs and she had a very fast and without pain death. Instead the myth with the snake is wrong. Egyptian cobras, gives you paralyze for many hours and a painful death.

which toxicologists?

Its the same incident with Great Alexandros. With his food/drinks and dont forget that Cleopatra was the daughter of Great Alexandros high commander. She didnt wanted to leave Greece and they forced her to rule Egypt. She was the most appropriate.

Didn't want to leave Greece? She was born in Alexandria and never lived in Greece and she was Macedonian. She also was NOT the daughter of Ptolemy I, he died about 250 years before she was born

Plutarch philosopher gives that records. www.greek-language.gr...

interesting how if one keeps reading beyond paragraph 85.1 you will find that Plutarch himself destroys your hypothesis by talking about the snake. It seems like a very far stretch of the imagination to go from suicide to murder by fig carrying Jews when it seems far more logical that she would attempt to avoid being paraded through Rome in a Triumph at all costs, including her own life.

They created this myth with the snake, those who love myths. But Ceasar and his entire group of soldiers, never found any snake or posion bottle or anything that leads into suicide.

I would suggest you read over the translation of Plutarch because that statement is absolutely false. Which Caesar are you referring to? Julius was dead for 14 years when Cleopatra died and Octavian did not receive the title of Augustus until 27 BCE so technically, there was no Caesar when she died.

And it was a 99% a jew, because it was known how Great Alexandros died and they killed Kleopatra with the same way.

and what is the evidence that makes you think this is true?

jews are very happy that they merged with danaus, they merged their bloods, thats why they call themselves DANS (its actually today scandinavians)... Because the original race of jews are mongolians. Blood type B, mosses was an early hybrid a satyr.

the mixture of blood type (danaus + mongolians ) AB, ONLY A and B can be merged and can be mixed. Not A with O and not B with O and not O with AB. Only A and B. We call them mongolians because they actually lived in Mongolia after (as a country) part of them. Thats why chinese also created later on the Zion Wall. To keep out the mongolians (the today turks as well)

That is why, AB blood type is the most modern.

Its the only mixture of blood type that happened around 5-4000bc. Dans was a tribe from Atlantis, later on some of them resided in Greece. We know also about the 4-5000bc because it happened after cataclismic event and its when chinese moved into today china land.. Because before that, they all lived in the today USA. We have references for these things

And the evidence? I speak with historic records. Kleopatra died with the same way, Great Alexandros died and it was known, who added the poison in his food. That means it was a group of "jews" who assassinated or was after the kingdom of Great Alexandros... They died with same way, coincidence?

originally posted by: Ploutonas
jews are very happy that they merged with danaus, they merged their bloods, thats why they call themselves DANS (its actually today scandinavians)... Because the original race of jews are mongolians. Blood type B, mosses was an early hybrid a satyr.

the mixture of blood type (danaus + mongolians ) AB, ONLY A and B can be merged and can be mixed. Not A with O and not B with O and not O with AB. Only A and B. We call them mongolians because they actually lived in Mongolia after (as a country) part of them. Thats why chinese also created later on the Zion Wall. To keep out the mongolians (the today turks as well)

That is why, AB blood type is the most modern.

Its the only mixture of blood type that happened around 5-4000bc. Dans was a tribe from Atlantis, later on some of them resided in Greece.

And the evidence? I speak with historic records. Kleopatra died with the same way, Great Alexandros died and it was known, who added the poison in his food. That means it was a group of "jews" who assassinated or was after the kingdom of Great Alexandros... They died with same way, coincidence?

if you can't cite any sources then its just BS. And the one source you did cite, Plutarch actually contradicted what you tried to attribute to him. Not one thing you say about the Jews or their origins is even close to the truth

it doesnt contradict at all. The translation is bad, I checked it. If you try google translator it translates it bad...

It says: she ordered to prepare her bath, after she had her bath, she had a glorious meal. Someone from the fields tried to enter her rooms and the guards stopped him. He was holding a basket. The guards ordered him to check the basket and when they removed the leafs from the top, they noticed it was a basket full of figs.

They surprised from the size and the beauty of that figs, so the one who carried the basket, offered to the guards from 1 fig (2 figs for 2 guards). And thats how he entered her rooms and gave her the figs.

Then Kleopatra she wanted to be alone and she locked her rooms. When Ceasar returned, found her dead.

And here is a small detail... When ceasar entered, he found one of her (helpers girls) crying and the other one almsot dead, she was not dead yet.

That means, Kleopatra offered 1 fig to her helper lady and they both died. Ceaser didnt hunt down this guy from the fields, because the 2 guards who ate figs, nothing happen to them. But figs are not juice... Logical to calculate that you must bypass the guards and guards may eat 1 or 2 or 10.

originally posted by: Ploutonas
it doesnt contradict at all. The translation is bad, I checked it. If you try google translator it translates it bad...

then I guess it's good that I didn't use Google to translate it.

[85.1] Then, after much wept and hugged her and Ms. afilise the URN, ordered her to prepare her bath. And after loystike, sprawled in the anaklintro and ate a splendid lunch. And then she reached someone from fields holding a basket. [2] Because the guards wanted to know what is inside, the man opened the basket, he pulled the sheets and saw that it was full of figs. [3] These thaymasane the beauty and the size of figs and he smilingly asked them to get out of one. The trust then and allowed him to enter. [4] Cleopatra again, just finished her lunch, he sent a postcard to Caesar who had previously written and seal. Drove away after everyone else, except two faithful of women and locked the doors.[5] Solved well Cesare the postcard and like he saw there to the entreaties and tears with begs to the bury along with Antony, immediately understood what they had done. And in the beginning he thought to run to help, but after he sent some to go quickly and to investigate. [6] however, he had very bad happen. Because, while people ran fast and saw that the keepers had nothing grasping, with opened doors found her lying dead on a golden bed is embellished and Royal. [7] one woman, she called Yle, xepsychoyse front legs, the other, Charmion, parapatoyse queasy trying to trim the DIAdem that stefanwne the Queen's head. Then someone shouted angry, [8] "nice these feats, Charmion?" And she replied, "Fine, but the truth, and fittingly in a descendant of Kings". And he didn't say anything else, but there beside the bed fell. [86.1] Said now that this snake poison, shield, brought those figs and leaves that they not appear. These commands had given Cleopatra, so the reptile to be thrown onto the body without and she knows when. [2] but when we removed the figs and saw it, he said, "so is this Here" and after the arm of gymnwse, left the snake to bite.

It says: she ordered to prepare her bath, after she had her bath, she had a glorious meal. Someone from the fields tried to enter her rooms and the guards stopped him. He was holding a basket. The guards ordered him to check the basket and when they removed the leafs from the top, they noticed it was a basket full of figs.

They surprised from the size and they beauty of that figs, so the one who carried the basket, offered to the guards from 1 fig (2 figs for 2 guards). And thats how he entered her rooms and gave her the figs.

Then Kleopatra she wanted to be alone and she locked her rooms. When Ceasar returned, found her dead.

And here is a small detail... When ceasar entered, he found one of her (helpers girls) crying and the other one almsot dead, she was not dead yet.

it would have been unusual for Egyptian royalty to share food with their servants, unless they were trusted and valkuiable servants who she wanted to take out with herself.

That means, Kleopatra offered 1 fig to her helper lady and they both died. Ceaser didnt hunt down this guy from the fields, because the 2 guards who ate from 1 fig, nothing happen to them. But figs are not juice... Logical to calculate that you must bypass the guards and guards may eat 1 or 2 or 10...

you have demonstrated nothing that indicates the figs were poisoned. there are many sources, some of them contemporary, describing the suicide and how the snake was hidden inside the figs. Even if it were not a snake as the slow painful drawn out death would not be anyone's first choice, its far more likely she had someone poison the figs or that she had a poison with her in the mausoleum which she used on the figs before ingesting them. There is absolutely nothing that supports the wild hypothesis of Jews murdering her.

a reply to: peter vlar

from the things I ve read in Plutarch, they where very close to her. Because she wanted to be alone, but she kept these 2 ladys with her inside her rooms. 2 of them died (including Kleopatra) and the other one lived.

I dont know if you have this story in your english literature. Plutarch also refers "the word of mouth" about the snake, but he also says : it was no proofs, even if they searched. No snakes, no nothing. And it was not a royal food gathered by her royal employees. He says "someone" anyone and he entered her rooms to offer these figs, not in her kitchen.

So even if Kleopatra didnt offered 1, maybe when the servant lady recieved them, eat 1.

And can u please give me ur sources? I hope its not like a modern foreign historian who only gave his opinion and most possible, cant even read my language and study in big depth.

Plutarch was born in 45 (ac) and died 120 (ac)

a reply to: Ploutonas


A whole lot of assumption and not much to support the thesis. Not much for me to comment on Witt sources and citations.

a reply to: peter vlar


the historian who spoke second (150 years after plutarch) about Kleopatra, was a roman Dion Cassius and said that maybe, kleopatra drink poison because it was not a snake.

en.wikipedia.org...

So dio cassius based his research in the myths "word of mouth", plutarch also wrote these things (said that there was no proofs) but he also gave an event, that is not recorded in your literature.

originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: undo

might explain why the usa still hasn't had a female president and when we do get potential candidates, they are easily disenfranchised just by referring to their sexual escapades, pms or stupidity.

You think stupidity isn't a good reason not to vote for someone to be president regardless of their gender? Interesting.

no, i'm saying stupidity is easily sold about women, even today when we have female rocket scientists, chemists, doctors, surgeons, linguists, mayors, governors and etc, yet the moment a woman gets anywhere near the white house lawn, she loses several iq points. you know what i'm talking about.

No I don't actually, you are implying the sexism. Palin can hardly blame anyone but herself for coming across as stupid - I'm not aware of the same being commonly thought of Hilliary Clinton.

originally posted by: uncommitted

No I don't actually, you are implying the sexism. Palin can hardly blame anyone but herself for coming across as stupid - I'm not aware of the same being commonly thought of Hilliary Clinton.

if there's not a problem, how come we are one of the few places left on the earth, that hasn't had a female president/leader?

a reply to: Ploutonas

i really don't think she was poisoned, nor that she killed herself.