The holy grail of Lion Spain

There has been news about a grail in Spanish town of Leon that it is claimed to be the one Christians in the 4th century in Jerusalem praised as the one used by Jesus in the last supper, so I will try to explain why the Spanish researchers claim this. First here is the grail

The first thing you may notice is the fact it does not look like something someone in Jerusalem would use 2k years ago, and it’s true, the gems and gold where added in the 11th century to protect the true cup.

The cup is made of agate, agate was used to make mid-range kitchenware during the period, there are many examples from the period, as this peace you could buy in 2011 for only 150k$

ROMAN AGATE CUP CIRCA 1ST-2ND CENTURY A.D. (250k$)

So here comes the first question, why a chipped not to rare cup was protected by gold and jewels, when others from the period were in better shape and were of better quality? Well no one could say why it was done, but of what there are records and it is known, it was done by Urraca of Zamora, using her personal jewels and them donated to Basilica of San Isidoro in Leon.

This grail was in this church since them without calling anyone attention until two Spanish historians started to make a routine investigation of medieval artifacts in Leon. The researchers are Margarita Torres Sevilla and José Miguel Ortega.

What they found and called their attention was not the grail, it was a silver box in display in the “house of treasures” in the city, the box had markings of the Taifa of Dénia, it was an out of place object so they investigated in the AL-Azhar university in Cairo. What they found were two scrolls that explained the journey of the grail.

The first scroll talked about a famine in the Fatimid Caliphate in the 11th century, the Caliph of the time send for help to other Islamic kingdoms and the Emir of Denia answer to the call. In exchange for the help, the Emir asked for the grail worshiped by Christians in Jerusalem as the one used by Jesus in the last supper.

The request seemed odd in Fatimid so the ruler asked why such extravagant request, and the Emir answer it was a present for Ferdinand the great, a neighbor Christian king he needed favors with. So the grail was send, and presented as a gift to the king, in order to avoid commotion among the Christians in the city the grail was taken by a Christian pilgrim.

This is what tells the first scroll, now the second scroll is a confirmation that the grail in the church is the one taken from Jerusalem in the first scroll. Basically one of the daughters of Saladin felt ill and he asked for a peace of the grail chipped during the travel.

The full story can be found in greater detail with less inconsistencies in the book Los Reyes del Grial published by the researcher this year (Spanish only it seems).

It is remarkable a piece of chipped stone was cover in gold having a great consideration to avoid the lips of the priest touch the stone. It is also interesting how the researchers reach the conclusion due to careful examination of the logs in the Egypt library dating 1k years ago and not based on local lore, I bet a good novel could be made about the trip of this cup since the 4th century till it arrive in Spain just to please a king and his obsession.

Before you claim Indiana Jones said a carpenter had to use a wooden coop, the researchers had that cover by claiming the current Jewish laws of the Passover at the time would not allow the use of porous materials in the celebration (who knows not me for sure), and also raise the question that if Jesus was what it was claim as the savior son of god, king of the Jews and so on, would you not offer him your best dishes on a special occasion? after all agate was not what the 1% of the time would be using.

Well it's clearly being misrepresented.
Jesus's message was Spiritual, therefore treating material objects like this is counter to Jesus's message.
The True Grail is our Heart.

It's pretty simple.
They just wanna boost the value of their artifacts. $$$

a reply to: muzzleflash

You should not make a post in other people threads to advertise you own, doesn't look good .

Regardless of anyone opinion on the religious part of this, there was a grail in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre starting from the fourth century, true or not if it was used by someone it does not matter, it was lost and no one knows were it go.

This could be it, and its an archeological find very important if it is the one displayed in the church.

______________

Oh and tank you for the link i just put my star in this comment

I don't think a bunch of ridiculous rhymes will help us find it.

a reply to: Indigent

That's not fair.

I can disagree and use my own thread as evidence that explains exactly why the premise of a misleading claim is false.

Or should I just go hide in my own threads forever and let them rot into oblivion?
Yeah....don't think so.

Don't care what you think actually, I'll spread the Truth.

a reply to: muzzleflash

Don't care what you think actually

If you don't care what other people thinks why you post what you think in the first place? use U2U if you want to keep going on this please

originally posted by: Indigent
a reply to: muzzleflash

Don't care what you think actually

If you don't care what other people thinks why you post what you think in the first place? use U2U if you want to keep going on this please

I was discussing the thread's topic and why it's misleading. You avoided that and went after my character. I don't get any $ for what I wrote. Not many care either. It shouldn't be a big deal.

I'm sorry that my attempt to help was taken as an attack. It wasn't meant that way.

And I said I don't care what you think in response to your misjudgments on my character not your thread's topic or discussion relating to it. I also thank you for the links I did inspect them before I posted. I have no problem with your thread existing I think it's educational but some logic should be pointed out. I wasn't insulting you at all.

Let's start over shall we?
--------
Hi, I like you. Please don't be threatened by me.
I'm sorry I came off wrong.

I like reading about the Grail and all the stuff you linked but I didn't see anyone point out it's all figurative myth to explain deeper mysteries of the human soul so I decided to point that out real quick.

to have a grail used at jesus' last supper
first you have to have jesus

and we don't even have that ...(to be fair)...yet

we do have his message however, which while it is somewhat generic is still quite valuable whan you hold it in your heart

now..nothing is better then eternal happiness...
but, since a ham sandwich is better then nothing...
I really think people should think more about jesus' purported lack of materialism


to be fair to all:
i hope this thread is as intersting and fun as MFs was/is


ps
since i have found my grail, I'm not too concerned about what other people do...unless they want to share
which is why we have a icon

a reply to: Danbones

Again its irrelevant, its about a 4th century grail lost, not about religion.

It seems a grail was in Jerusalem since Constantine made the church and it was lost some centuries later, do you deny this?

originally posted by: Indigent
a reply to: Danbones

Again its irrelevant, its about a 4th century grail lost, not about religion.

How is it irrelevant to the OP?

You started with this exact quote:

There has been news about a grail in Spanish town of Leon that it is claimed to be the one Christians in the 4th century in Jerusalem praised as the one used by Jesus in the last supper

It is both a historical artifact and a religious icon. It's totally relevant to a deeper understanding of the topic.
We cannot discuss one without the other.

a reply to: Indigent
Its an interesting proposition, but as we have seen...there are a great many grails and stories out there
like there are a lot of bridges in brooklyn

if it were genuine there would be a constant stream of miracles...
any miracles?

not to be unfair
but IMHO
i have to agree with the point that without the christian religion that goes with the relic then it is just another beer mug

the value of MFs thread where this grail was previously discussed was that there were as many different grails as there were posts

a reply to: muzzleflash

no, no one is saying this is something used by a person in the first century, what is being claimed is this is the one used since the fourth century in Jerusalem claimed to be the one used by the individual. You see the first one claimed to be what is claimed, a very real thing in history, if it was used or not its another thing.

That one was lost, now claim to be found with evidence. its more or less called archeology, hence the forum is in.

here for example:

While opinions vary as to the original inspiration for the idea of a Holy Grail, it is widely accepted that a grail, or graal in old French, (serving dish or bowl) first appears in a work of medieval French literature, Perceval, le Conte du Graal (The Story of the Grail), written in the late 12th century

www.thetruthdecoded.org.au...

any proof of the grail story in 33 ad?and why is the root of the word RA?
like ANgels and hEAven...

a reply to: Danbones

True there are many, some not even originate from christian mythology but Celtic mythology, most of the ones are claim to be the one in the last supper has no evidence to support the claim other than local lore, in Valencia there is a another one claimed to be the one, or in Glastonbury.

What this have is a timeline of a trip from Jerusalem, where first it was supposed to be the one used by Jesus, to Spain. others don't have any historical support , for example the one in Valencia its exactly the same, its an agate cup protected by gold, but it is not expressively mentioned as the one in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, this one is.

Don't think of it as something Christian, think of it as a Roman item of great historic relevance. Constantine change the course of history by adopting a new religion for the empire, don't think he did it for other reason than consolidate power, to give more strength to the new religion he build temples in the most relevant places of the religion. in the center of it he build a church dedicated to the Messiah where he resurrected, in this most of the relevant parts of the religion were displayed for worship of the believers. this place is where a grail is attributed to Jesus. Jerusalem changed of ruler trough time and the grail was lost at some point.

It is history, not religion, it does not matter if it has powers or not, it does not matter if it was used by Christ or not, what does mater is if its the first one claimed to be, if its the one on display when Constantine build the temple. A historic item.

a reply to: Indigent
Sure Indigent:
I'll star that definition of the topic
A very interesting 4th C peace of history with some decent docs
on that score i can certainly agree

arguing about it a little helps keep it up top too
so others might see it and join in

I want to apologize for my reaction, in my mind it was very clear this was about a real physical object and had the believe people could see objectively the same. I'm starting to get annoyed by the way people on ATS cannot see things from a neutral ground and always respond from their more extreme view points. It is my fault for expecting otherwise and it wrong i reacted to it, therefore sorry for not tolerating your viewpoints.

keeping it rolling.

This is my Quote from a post above...

Please notice what can happen potentially.
Deep in our subconscious, one might possibly read this statement

"keeping it rolling" as
"keeping I trolling"

Now I swear to you I'm not (from my perspective I actually like the OP's posting history).
We are rolling not trolling, haha.

But imagine the countless ways things like this "might" affect us? And how many are there waiting to be found that we haven't seen yet? Probably best not to look for stuff like that in the first place, LOL!

By the way since that's mostly rhetorical and I don't expect any response (it's too bizarre), I will return this post to the topic matter at hand directly::

I will mention that I am intrigued by the book you linked : The Grail Kings and am going to try to find a copy (in English). I am actually interested enough to flip through it for inspiration, so thanks for that one especially. It's actually a reasonable price considering what I've paid for some books...

originally posted by: Indigent
Don't think of it as something Christian, think of it as a Roman item of great historic relevance.

"Roman" Catholics from "Rome" ...sure is hard to separate those two sometimes especially when talking about subjects heavily influenced by fusing of the two.

They are blended together quite deeply.
Also the 'mystical cup/bowl theme' far predates both in terms of symbolic significance as well (as a Well or Whale even).

It's actually found in nearly every cultural tradition I've ever looked into, in some aspect or another. But easily explained once you know what to look for and in what context to approach it from.

a reply to: Indigent

What defines an object as "Holy" is the presence of Almighty God in it.

God does not dwell in a cup, therefore no grail can be labeled "Holy" in spirit and in truth.

To Muzzle's point, God can dwell in the heart of a follower rendering that individual as "Holy" for the time that the indwelling is sustained by the lack of sin (repented sin). As soon as sin is committed (daily) and not repented of quickly, God will no longer dwell in that heart and the individual will no longer be "Holy" until that sin is repented of.

Worship the Creator who is Holy (God) and not the created which is not (cup/grail); this search is all vanity.

God Bless,

This may be a smidge off-topic, but I think ATS should have a forum, not unlike the Hoax forum, to where threads like this can me immediately moved when the first page becomes an opposing-beliefs pissing match. Call the forum "pissing matches" and get these threads out of the way of the civil discourse that SHOULD be occurring here.