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Snarl
reply to post by Logarock
I'd guess the government collects their fair share in taxes when he takes his cattle to market. Isn't that enough? If his cattle aren't grazing on that grass, it's just gonna die after awhile.
- John Muir, The Yosemite (1912), page 256
Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul alike.
Olivine
Snarl
reply to post by Logarock
I'd guess the government collects their fair share in taxes when he takes his cattle to market. Isn't that enough? If his cattle aren't grazing on that grass, it's just gonna die after awhile.
Ah, the old, "If we don't harvest these last remaining redwood trees, they are just going to rot" argument.
daveinats
Cattle ranchers are not necessarily millionaires. Most cattle ranchers have had to cut their hears in the last few years due to drought and low prices. But, you ask, if cattle prices are so low, why am I paying $21.00 for ground beef in the store. Well, the only people making money on beef right now are the slaughter houses. Unionized, high paid slaughter houses.
Buy low, sell high. Make the union rich...thank you Mr Obama!
On Saturday, the bureau released about 400 head of cattle it had seized from Bundy. The operation had been expected to take a month to collect as many as 900 cattle.
ThichHeaded
reply to post by Logarock
Is there a soundbite we can get of this for prosperity?
the corrupt foreign controlled bankster owned govt unglued, unhinged, and removed the nails. We had been left to float down a river, but now we hear the rumble of the waterfall ahead.
Bundy Ranch could indeed be the spark. Far too long the Americans have been distracted by drugs, personal greed, apathy, TV/sports, etc.
The ELites have turned the children of America into donkeys like in the story of Pinocchio, worrying about fun for decades.
America was stabbed in the back by Woodrow Wilson and had been on life support since FDR's new deal.
Logarock
reply to post by TownCryer
After listening to this guy yesterday I was disappointed. If the guy wants to be a radical state rights guy that ok but he should have his ideas pounded out into something a great deal more discernible after all these years. He did make some points but for Petes sake they have apparently not made a great deal of effort out there to get laws changed or anything as far as I could tell. Just been setting around the ranch for 20 years reading some radical pamphlets and hoping it would all magically go away is what it sounded like.
He said he didn't have to deal with the Feds it was a state issue. Apparently he feels he and others can change the nature of the land holding without actually doing something with the state legislature. It doesn't sound like a movement with much steam more like a clustermuck.
If anyone knows of any legislative efforts please chime in here.
seaez
reply to post by stormcell
Thanks for that info. Per the link provided:
“While the federal agencies and county superficially attempted to meet the requirements, the reality is that because of their willful neglect, critical habitat has been steadily degraded by the trespass grazing,” said Mrowka. Recent surveys by the BLM have found 700 to 1,000 or more cattle in the Gold Butte area — an amount 10 times above what was legally permitted even before the tortoise’s protection. Grazing reduces vegetation the tortoises need to live and spreads noxious weeds by disturbing the soil with hooves and fur that carry invasive seed. Last month, the local office of the Bureau of Land Management had planned a roundup of the trespass cattle, but the operation was canceled at the last minute by higher-ranking agency officials. “We’ve tried to work with the BLM and county constructively to achieve a good resolution to this problem, but with the recent cancellation of a roundup of the trespass cattle, our only option for helping these tortoises is to take them to court,” said Mrowka.
So, not only was Bundy involved in non-licensed use of the land, he was illegally over populating his cattle in Gold Butte. I guess if you are going to ignore the necessary economic relationship, why give a flying cow about criminally over populating the same area so you can bilk 10 times as much money from the tax payers.
Most of the anger here is misdirected, regardless of how you feel about habitat protection for wild animals, there is recourse to take within the law. Mr. Bundy is egregiously outside any legal bounds and has riled up the fool easy to rally to the defense of his profits.
Mamatus
reply to post by nighthawk1954
The big bus "paddy wagon" is a clear clue that they plan on arrests. Now we will see if the Militias, Bundy, friends family and supporters will have the balls for what is next.
I am still on the fence regarding Bundys right to grave on BLM land as there has been no clear proof he had any rights to it. However I am all for seeing the someone actually grow the balls to risk their lives and or freedom for what they believe is right.
IMO they will make a lot of noise when it's time to be arrested. However I would be willing to bet that not a single protestor, militia member fires a shot in defense of their beliefs.
Glenn asked him to clarify since in the Nevada State Constitution that land Bundy’s cattle are grazing on was given over to the federal government. Below is a transcript of Bundy’s explanation:
CLIVEN: Let’s talk about the — Glenn, I really want to talk about that because that’s very important. You’re talking about the Enabling Act of the people of the territory of the state of Nevada. And remember, in the — section of the Constitution, we’re talking about territories of Nevada. Let me see if I can get that straight. What it says, it says the United States Congress will have power to dispose of all rules and regulations within the territory. Now, let’s think what we’re doing. We’re talking about the territory of Nevada. People of the territory of Nevada. As they — they do not have the Constitution. They’re within the territory and Congress had an unlimited power to make all the rules and regulations. Okay. The people of the territory petitioned the United States Congress to make this a state. And they have a clouded title. So in order to clear their title, they give up their public domain — forever. It sounds terrible. Forever? But let me tell what you they had to do. They had to give it up forever so Congress would have a clear title. And what did Congress do? It made a state of Nevada. Which [indiscernible] a lot of them — quote Ed Presley here. Here’s what Ed Presley said. It doesn’t matter what happened before statehood. What matters is what has happened at the moment of statehood. Now, if you think about that in the second. At the moment of statehood. What happened? At the moment of statehood the people of the territory become people of the United States with the Constitution with equal footing to the original 13 states. They had boundaries around them, a state line. And that boundary was divided into 17 subdivisions, which were county. I live in one of those counties: Clark County, Nevada. And in that county, Clark County, Nevada, we elect our county commissioners, which is the closest to we the peoplend we elect the county sheriff and we pay him to do what? Protect our life, liberty and property. I’m a citizen of that county. I abide by all the state laws.
“So I think this is very clarifying to people,” Glenn said.
“It’s not BLM land. It’s Nevada land,” Bundy said.
“That is a different point of view than everybody else that is a rancher that I know,” Glenn said.
Based on the conversation on the radio show, Bundy’s fundamental issue isn’t with an out of control government taking control of his personal land, but that he disagrees with how that land became federal land when Nevada was founded in 1864.
Logarock
reply to post by seaez
To me the problem here most important is that the state rights movement has been represented in a cumbersome manner. I really like what some states are doing at the legislative level to stave of Federal coercion. This sort of ad hoc resistance is not needed nearly as much as real action by state legislators.
If there is really an issue here he and his fellow ranchers should have had something of a more direct legislative actionable affair underway a long time ago.
Now having said that, this sort of Federal exercise of force should be stopped by the state in my opinion. Don't bring snipers to a cattle round up.
Logarock
reply to post by seaez
To me the problem here most important is that the state rights movement has been represented in a cumbersome manner. I really like what some states are doing at the legislative level to stave of Federal coercion. This sort of ad hoc resistance is not needed nearly as much as real action by state legislators.
If there is really an issue here he and his fellow ranchers should have had something of a more direct legislative actionable affair underway a long time ago.
Now having said that, this sort of Federal exercise of force should be stopped by the state in my opinion. Don't bring snipers to a cattle round up.
jimmyx
Logarock
reply to post by seaez
To me the problem here most important is that the state rights movement has been represented in a cumbersome manner. I really like what some states are doing at the legislative level to stave of Federal coercion. This sort of ad hoc resistance is not needed nearly as much as real action by state legislators.
If there is really an issue here he and his fellow ranchers should have had something of a more direct legislative actionable affair underway a long time ago.
Now having said that, this sort of Federal exercise of force should be stopped by the state in my opinion. Don't bring snipers to a cattle round up.
his "fellow ranchers" already paid their grazing fees, they obeyed the law, apparently they are not having a problem grazing their cattle on BLM land.
Illuminawty
And all of this (allegedly) over soon to be extinc turtles. The way the government is snatching up farmers cows....they will be extinct as well soon.
In letters last week to ranchers across Nevada, the federal agency has mandated removal of cattle from 1.7 million acres of public lands from March 1 to June 14. "We are concerned that cattle are in direct competition for forage and grasses that the tortoise depends on for food," says Sid Slone, chief biologist for the BLM's Las Vegas district.
The BLM says only 4 percent of the country's beef is produced on Western lands. But they acknowledge there is no proof that cattle grazing has direct impacts on the health or well-being of desert tortoises, according to Mr. Slone.
Having shown that tortoise populations have dropped 90 percent in the last 50 years - and in some areas of the Mojave declining 50 percent in seven years - environmentalists were able to get the tortoise emergency status on the federal list of endangered species in 1989. The emergency listing became permanent on April 2, 1990.
...
"This action is unfair and not founded on scientific evidence," says Mr. Connelley. He says studies have shown that the tortoise numbers reached their height in the 1960s when livestock numbers were at their height because tortoises thrive on cow manure.
all emphases mine
"This is one more attempt to turn the planet into a national park," Connelley says. "If we keep putting restrictions on our ability to produce, we are going to find ourselves more and more dependent on foreign sources." Some compromise