Aspiring TV producer mistakenly killed by deputies in West Hollywood

The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department acknowledged Thursday that its deputies mistakenly shot and killed a aspiring TV producer they thought was a stabbing suspect.

John Winkler, 30, had gone to a neighbor's apartment Monday night on Palm Avenue in West Hollywood where a man was holding people hostage and tried to help.

Winkler was shot when he rushed out of the apartment with another victim who had been trapped inside the apartment with a third victim and the suspect, sheriff's officials said in a statement.

Three deputies fired at Winkler. He was shot once and died.

Winkler's friend Devin Richardson said Winkler was friends with two of the people held hostage and had rushed over to the apartment when he heard them screaming.

Aspiring TV producer mistakenly killed by deputies in West Hollywood
I'm sorry this should be deleted. It seems like someone's beat me to it.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by dug88


Sounds like a typical over reaction by the police. Shoot first and ask questions later because we all know they don't think, they just react. I mean seriously, a person mistaken as a knife wielding suspect obviously some distance from the police and they shoot him. The police are not your friends, they have their own club and YOU'RE NOT IN IT, so in many cases calling them is a mistake.

Cheers - Dave

bobs_uruncle
reply to post by dug88

 

Sounds like a typical over reaction by the police. Shoot first and ask questions later because we all know they don't think, they just react. I mean seriously, a person mistaken as a knife wielding suspect obviously some distance from the police and they shoot him. The police are not your friends, they have their own club and YOU'RE NOT IN IT, so in many cases calling them is a mistake.

Cheers - Dave

edit on 4/11.2014 by bobs_uruncle because: (no reason given)

It's not just calling them that's a mistake. If you are present somewhere and the cops are likely to show up. Leave. Whether that's a sporting event or helping someone who had an accident on the street. I would love to get involved and help someone but these days if you try to assist the cops WILL hurt you, they may even kill you and that just increases the body count.

They can legally murder you and collect a bounty for doing so.

They are not your friends, and contrary to what we were taught as kids they are not there to protect us. They are there to punish anyone they deem unfit. That is likely you.

The only time you should ever call the police is when you believe your neighbor is going to call them on you first.

This is happening so much nowadays there should be a separate forum dedicated to "Police Brutality" - I understand it is breaking news, but really this is happening just about every day

Aazadan

They can legally murder you and collect a bounty for doing so.

Where did you drag this load of BS from?

Had people bothered to read the article you would see why shots were fired. The one person was killed and the second person was wounded.

If you are involved in a standoff and have 2 people burst through a door and start running directly at law enforcement what the hell would you do?

reply to post by Xcathdra


Well I did read the article and still feel the cops are murdered him, what are you one of the cops that shot him? makes me sick what has come of law enforcement.

wissy
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Well I did read the article and still feel the cops are murdered him, what are you one of the cops that shot him? makes me sick what has come of law enforcement.

No I don't live / work in California. I just get irritated when people refuse to explore both sides of this incident and instead jump to a conclusion with nothing to support that jump while making asinine comments about cops getting paid bounties.

I see people make comment after comment of how they would have behaved in similar situations and all I can say stating and actually doing are 2 completely different areas. Those that lip off about what they would have done have absolutely no idea.

Xcathdra

wissy
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Well I did read the article and still feel the cops are murdered him, what are you one of the cops that shot him? makes me sick what has come of law enforcement.

No I don't live / work in California. I just get irritated when people refuse to explore both sides of this incident and instead jump to a conclusion with nothing to support that jump while making asinine comments about cops getting paid bounties.

I see people make comment after comment of how they would have behaved in similar situations and all I can say stating and actually doing are 2 completely different areas. Those that lip off about what they would have done have absolutely no idea.

edit on 11-4-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

well perhaps having an itchy trigger finger is grounds for finding a new line of work

hopenotfeariswhatweneed
well perhaps having an itchy trigger finger is grounds for finding a new line of work

If an itchy trigger finger were the issue then sure. Since its not in this case there is no need to find new work.

Using 20/20 hindsight to form a conclusion and then critique officer actions based on that information is not compatible. This is why there is always a disconnect on some of these issues between law enforcement actions and what civilians think those actions should have been.

Keep in mind - Until you read this article you did not know what was going on inside the apartment. You did not know how many people were in the apartment. You did not know how many suspects are present. You don't know how many / what type of weapons are present. You don't know if people are dead inside the apartment. You don't know if people are still a alive in the apartment. You have apartments in the area that have people inside them. Those people could possibly be involved. Those people could possibly become hostages. Those people could possibly become victims.

You see people bursting out of the apartment, with one covered in blood followed by a second person running behind him.

You have a split second - Are the people running at you suspects? Victims? Are they armed? If they are how much time do you have to respond before they engage?

Even if a person is armed with a knife, its considered a deadly force encounter. The rule set by the courts in general is the 21 to 26 ft rule. A person armed with a knife has the ability to close the 21 - 26 foot gap and engage the officer before they could draw their weapon. Statistics show even if the officer is able to draw and engage, they usually suffer knife injuries in the process since its a point blank confrontation.

I have no issues with people holding police accountable. I have no issues with people demanding investigations into law enforcement actions.

I do have issues when people read an article and draw their own conclusions on how an officer should have responded. Truth of the matter is had it not been for the article after the fact, nobody in this thread, including myself, could describe what occurred because we were not there.


Another Example -
A few years back an off duty officer was at the mall with his family. While shopping you start hearing people scream followed by loud pops. As people started to scramble out of the way this officer draws his weapon and holds his position. He sees a guy running in his direction who is not armed. He sees a guy running behind him, also in civilian clothes, armed with a gun.

The off duty officer engages the armed individual shooting and killing him.

The problem -

The guy being chased was actually committing an armed robbery of the jewelry store. The civilian with the gun turned out to be an off duty officer. He struggled with the suspect, whose weapon discharged in the process. He was able to break away from the off duty officer and started to run for the door. The off duty officer gave pursuit, where he was shot and killed by the other off duty officer.

Tragic? Absolutely.

Preventable? No one could answer that with certainty.

Why?

The information was not present until after the fact when the media got all the info.

Do you engage the individual who is armed in a mall where they are but loads of people around?

My point is not one person can say what they would have done and mean it / acted on it until they are in the same situation.

reply to post by Xcathdra


i get it....call it the wrong place at the wrong time...if you are on the wrong side of it you are a dead man....its a tough gig being law enforcement...so it just makes sense to view everyone else as the enemy...lets face it we all look after our own

Xcathdra

Aazadan

They can legally murder you and collect a bounty for doing so.

Where did you drag this load of BS from?

Had people bothered to read the article you would see why shots were fired. The one person was killed and the second person was wounded.

If you are involved in a standoff and have 2 people burst through a door and start running directly at law enforcement what the hell would you do?

since I, and my fellow LEO's all had weapons, I would determine if they were hostages first....hostages do run the hell fast when they think they are escaping with their lives....seems to be a logical action that would be known

jimmyx

Xcathdra

Aazadan

They can legally murder you and collect a bounty for doing so.

Where did you drag this load of BS from?

Had people bothered to read the article you would see why shots were fired. The one person was killed and the second person was wounded.

If you are involved in a standoff and have 2 people burst through a door and start running directly at law enforcement what the hell would you do?

since I, and my fellow LEO's all had weapons, I would determine if they were hostages first....hostages do run the hell fast when they think they are escaping with their lives....seems to be a logical action that would be known

c'mon now jimmy that requires thinking outside the box

hopenotfeariswhatweneed
i get it....call it the wrong place at the wrong time...if you are on the wrong side of it you are a dead man....

Respectfully I don't think you do, based on your comments.

I find it difficult to believe that if you are faced with 2 people running directly at you, one covered in blood, you would take some sort of action to protect yourself / others until you could figure out what's going on. What's more is if you used deadly force to protect yourself, given the circumstances it would be justified.

To assume civilians would behave differently is not realistic, and assuming Police have all information going into a call is not realistic.

hopenotfeariswhatweneed
its a tough gig being law enforcement...

It is but not because of the reasons you are insinuating.

hopenotfeariswhatweneed
so it just makes sense to view everyone else as the enemy...lets face it we all look after our own

I resent that comment as it falls into the ignorance box sir.

If the Fire department is dispatched to a fire, they respond accordingly.
If the US military is sent into a combat zone, they respond accordingly.
If the Police department is dispatched somewhere, we have absolutely no idea of what we are walking into.

By extension, you have no idea what law enforcement is walking into either. While I understand the point about an innocent person being shot and killed and a second being shot and wounded, it does not indicate that law enforcement acted in an irresponsible manner nor does it suggest they over reacted.

If you are really that intent on using hindsight 20/20 and the court of public opinion to review law enforcement actions, the same should then apply to you and anyone else who thinks that attitude is appropriate. Something tells me though you would throw a fit if that were the case and claim its not fair.

Is there any reason you and others are not going to allow the investigation to take place?

jimmyx
since I, and my fellow LEO's all had weapons, I would determine if they were hostages first....hostages do run the hell fast when they think they are escaping with their lives....seems to be a logical action that would be known

What was the distance between the door they exited from and the location of the officers who discharged their weapons?

What information was provided to law enforcement when they were dispatched?


I get what you are saying and agree.. My issue are those who like to play the 20/20 hindsight game.

jimmyx

Xcathdra

Aazadan

They can legally murder you and collect a bounty for doing so.

Where did you drag this load of BS from?

Had people bothered to read the article you would see why shots were fired. The one person was killed and the second person was wounded.

If you are involved in a standoff and have 2 people burst through a door and start running directly at law enforcement what the hell would you do?

since I, and my fellow LEO's all had weapons, I would determine if they were hostages first....hostages do run the hell fast when they think they are escaping with their lives....seems to be a logical action that would be known

Do hostages typically run if they are tied?
Do hostages typically run if they are cowering and ducking in fear?

No one thinks logically when they are panicking. No, hostages do not usually run fast when bullets are flying over their heads. But how quickly must you process that information before shooting? You get a split second and that's it. You don't have time to discuss with your buddies.

reply to post by Xcathdra


well in the movies i am sure that criminals run at the police line ....seriously do u think the person or people running out of the room toward the police line are the criminals ? is it possible they were trying to escape as opposed to doing a butch cassidy and the sundance kid ?

tell me in your career how many times has a criminal been surrounded by you and your colleagues to come out gunho at you guys ?

Xcathdra

Aazadan

They can legally murder you and collect a bounty for doing so.

Where did you drag this load of BS from?

Had people bothered to read the article you would see why shots were fired. The one person was killed and the second person was wounded.

If you are involved in a standoff and have 2 people burst through a door and start running directly at law enforcement what the hell would you do?

Show restraint as a police officer. If people are running at you, with no weapons, you don't fire. I thought they trained for stuff like this with cardboard cutouts of a guy in a beanie and a gun with a mean face, and other cutouts of civilians. I guess they don't do that anymore? Just train them to shoot at everyone. That's great...not really.

Seriously...they should be able to determine whether someone has a weapon or not, and if they don't know, DO NOT FIRE.

hopenotfeariswhatweneed
well in the movies i am sure that criminals run at the police line ....

Life is not a movie and tv shows with cops is not realistic.

A good video that will address some of those Hollywood Myths verse Reality
*** WARNING - INCLUDES VIDEO FOOTAGE OF POLICE SHOOTINGS ***

hopenotfeariswhatweneed
seriously do u think the person or people running out of the room toward the police line are the criminals ? is it possible they were trying to escape as opposed to doing a butch cassidy and the sundance kid ?

Since there is a lot of video documentation showing criminals running at the police in an effort to either kill them or to force a suicide by cop, the possibility the person running at police being a suspect or victim is 50/50.

As I said before stating what you would do and actually taking action if you were in the situation are not the same. Making comments in cyberspace is not the same as actually standing there, gun drawn with little to no information and only a fraction of a second to decide if what you are being confronted with is a threat or not.

The decision the officers made was based on the information they had at the time, and there actions are based on what they perceived as a threat the moment force was used. Trying to second guess based on information you got from the media while disregarding the fact the officers had none of that info creates an unrealistic view of what occurred.

hopenotfeariswhatweneed
tell me in your career how many times has a criminal been surrounded by you and your colleagues to come out gunho at you guys ?

In my 10 years I have pulled my duty weapon more times than I care to remember. Out of all of those instances I have always lucked out in that the person I was dealing with complied with verbal commands. Those encounters range from motor vehicle pursuits, a fight in progress involving multiple parties, attempted murder, distraught individuals trying to force a suicide by cop etc etc etc.

Would I have been justified in discharging my firearm in those events? Absolutely.
Why didn't I? - A personal choice based on my my feeling / instincts at the time it occurred.

Hence the reason I take exception to people who wish to Monday morning quarterback a profession they nothing about while using media accounts as a basis for how the officer should have acted.

I don't think people have an adequate grasp of just how many factors an officer must consider in a split second. That is the reason scotus established the guidelines when reviewing an officer's use of force - what did the officer pe4rceive at the exact moment force was used.

Hindsight 20/20 is not allowed and this incident is a good reason why.

If you and your family are at home sleeping, and you hear someone come thru your front door, you grab your gun and you investigate. As you come out of your room into a darkened hallway, there is a figure standing in front of you holding an item in his hand.

what do you do?

Catacomb

Xcathdra

Aazadan

They can legally murder you and collect a bounty for doing so.

Where did you drag this load of BS from?

Had people bothered to read the article you would see why shots were fired. The one person was killed and the second person was wounded.

If you are involved in a standoff and have 2 people burst through a door and start running directly at law enforcement what the hell would you do?

Show restraint as a police officer. If people are running at you, with no weapons, you don't fire. I thought they trained for stuff like this with cardboard cutouts of a guy in a beanie and a gun with a mean face, and other cutouts of civilians. I guess they don't do that anymore? Just train them to shoot at everyone. That's great...not really.

Seriously...they should be able to determine whether someone has a weapon or not, and if they don't know, DO NOT FIRE.

Let me ask -

Where in the article does it state the officers said the persons were not armed?

Talk about being in the wrong place, by choice. I just dont get how a police officer could make a judgement call to take the shot, not knowing which one is the hostage, This is insane. They are responding to a knife situation, So if they use the excuse that they felt in danger, Would be total B.S.
These police are obvioulsy being taught to shoot first, and make sure to not wound, but kill, That stops a whole hell of a lot of court problems. These police are starting to look worse than the Gestapo.