Over 123% of Sevastopol residents vote to join Russia!

Links to validate my above post and figures


На сессии городского Совета утверждены результаты общекрымского референдума 16 марта 2014 года
sevsovet.com.ua... 4-goda

RT
Crimea declares independence, seeks UN recognition
www.rt.com...

As I have said the OP figures have been debunked, because you used sources from ukraine which are controlled by the new coup leaders in Ukraine that dont want the Crimean people to have a say, those same sources say one thing in one breath and another thing a minute later.

As mentioned earlier, its not russian Pravda its a Keiv based Pravda.

This topic should really be deleted, its an embarassment.

The West attempted to present Russia with a fait accompli in Kiev and the wider Ukraine with the Maidan revolt.

So Russia has presented The West with a fait accompli of their own in Crimea.

All the bleating in the world won't change the facts on the ground in either locale, only a full scale war might achieve that.....Something that neither side want.

It's just an example of the cut and thrust of the 'Great Game' under the new rules created by the 'Bush Doctrine'.

reply to post by Reinmax


Actually they have not been debunked.

Russian media is just as untrustworthy so that road goes both ways. The fact they have not released the voting breakdown suggests fraud.

The only embarrassment are the people who are touting democracy thru Russian invasion while trying to dissent / undermine any information that does not support Russia.

Please, explain to me how you support Russia while trying to silence opposition? A democracy means the ability to have more than one possibility.

I gave this thread a breakdown and links... please tell what are you really after Xcathdra? What exact information?

Title of thread is "Over 123% of Sevastopol residents vote to join Russia!". Members have proven that "Over 123% of Sevastopol residents vote to join Russia!" Did not occur.

I repeat.

* Total registered voters were 306,258.
* 262,041 chose to vote for Join the Russian Federation.
* 9,250 vote to Restore the 1992 constitution and remain as a part of Ukraine.
* 2,810 were invalid.
* 271,291 voted.
* 32,157 did not vote

Only Crimean residents with Ukrainian passports were allowed to vote.

Also... you may want to read this

In the evening of 16 March 2014, Mikhail Malyshev, the Crimean election Spokesman, reported that as of 20:00, 1,250,427 people or 81.36% voted in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, 274,136 or 89.50% in Sevastopol, and 1,524,563 or 82.71% in total.ITAR-TASS incorrectly reported this as 1,724,563 voters in total,but corrected it later. The error lead some people to report a 123% turnout in Sevastopol.[

Xcathdra

I took it as stating the EU/US should but out but Russia can do whatever.

How did you get that from the quoted part of my post? US/EU being no better than Russia when taking into account Libya and Iran. What I'm saying is, they BOTH need to GTFO.

Xcathdra

Actually they have not been debunked.

Yes they have, the blogger added 200,000 to his total.

Xcathdra

Russian media is just as untrustworthy so that road goes both ways. The fact they have not released the voting breakdown suggests fraud.

Irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

Xcathdra

The only embarrassment are the people who are touting democracy thru Russian invasion while trying to dissent / undermine any information that does not support Russia.

Please, explain to me how you support Russia while trying to silence opposition? A democracy means the ability to have more than one possibility.

Again, you're obfuscating and trying to get off topic.

Can you please show a source, which doesn't link to the blog in the op, that shows

Malyshev announced. “This result does not include Sevastopol. When Sevastopol is included, 1,724,563 people voted,”

And not, as I have shown 1,524,563.

If you can, then I'll happily admit I'm wrong.

If not, this I believe thread should be in hoax.

Xcathdra
reports Ukrainska Pravda, citing livejournal.com

Really? Checking the sources much?

Please do tell us who owns the "Ukrainska Pravda", and please make sure to list the name of the Ukrainian oligarch who actually owns it, and in which Western country he keeps his accounts.

Then feel free to expose which government position that oligarch usurped in the "new" Ukrainian "government".

ATS, right...

After browsing Ukraine and Crimea related threads on ATS, it is clear that there is a coordinated opinion control propaganda in play here. The media sources which are used to distort information are the same ones used in Ukraine to brainwash people into conflict with Russia.

renden

Xcathdra
reports Ukrainska Pravda, citing livejournal.com

Really? Checking the sources much?

Please do tell us who owns the "Ukrainska Pravda", and please make sure to list the name of the Ukrainian oligarch who actually owns it, and in which Western country he keeps his accounts.

Then feel free to expose which government position that oligarch usurped in the "new" Ukrainian "government".

ATS, right...

The Oligarchs would be the same ones who supported the former President of Ukraine before he was lawfully removed and fled the country like a coward...

As for the rest -
If the argument some of you guys put forth is valid, you would have supported it by now with something other than anger / dismissal based on the simple fact you don't like it. Let me explain something - The more the Russians / Cossacks / Crimean's try to justify their illegal actions, the more people will see through the lies they put out.

Based on the nations who supported Russia's invasion of Ukraine, well lets just say they aren't anywhere near stellar company. The simple fact that some people are demanding the world accept Russian / Crimean actions while threatening those who don't only reinforces the fact Russia and Crimea are in the wrong and that their most ardent supporters have no issues using threats to gain compliance because the truth doesn't support their position.

I don't live in Russia...I don't live in Crimea... and because of that, I am not required to accept the lies the Russian / Crimean governments put out on a daily basis.

If people are not able to accept the fact that a democracy allows for more than one view point on any given topic, that it allows people to criticize their government and its actions. If people cannot understand that, then they do not understand how a democracy works and should not be lecturing on the topic.

The election was rigged, plain and simple.
The election was illegal under Ukrainian Constitution.
The election was illegal under international law.
Non Ukrainian citizens voted in the elections, which again is illegal.

It speaks volumes when 185 +/- nations refuse to accept Russia / Crimea's actions.

The days of the cold war are over. Russia / Putin can either accept that, or they can continue down the path they are on, which will only result in Russia's demise. Not from outside nation's but from her own people, who have and will continue to grow tired of Putin's lies as well as a government that tells them what to think.

What I find funny is the dismissal of any Ukrainian / western media source and the embracing of a few media outlets that are run by the Russian government.

Tell me how Russian media is reliable when -
* Russian media claimed "nationalists" stormed their embassy in Kiev - A lie
* Russian UN Ambassador says they had a written request to invade Ukraine - A lie
* Russia's justification for invading Ukraine - Lies

Ukrainian media is more reliable / truthful than Russian media - and that's saying something.

The election was rigged, plain and simple.

Oh, that's your "proof". It's "plain and simple". Have you tried that approach in court?

- You Honor, I'm not guilty, it's plain and simple. I move for dismissal of all charges against me.

I wonder if that will work...

The election was illegal under Ukrainian Constitution.

Please show Constitutional provision.

Because; first of all it WAS legal since Crimea was NEVER a part of Ukraine but was an "autonomous region", and second ARMED COUP DE DAT is illegal under the same Ukrainian Constitution, under which the only legal president is Yanukovich.

The election was illegal under international law.

Please sight that law.

Non Ukrainian citizens voted in the elections, which again is illegal.

Proof? Oh wait, I forgot, it's "plain and simple", no citation needed.

It speaks volumes when 185 +/- nations refuse to accept Russia / Crimea's actions.

When Hitler attacked Poland how many nations refused to accept it as hostile action? Oh that's right, as long as somebody somewhere has some sort of opinion, then the REST of the world does not count.

How many countries are in a world, anyway? ...

The days of the cold war are over. Russia / Putin can either accept that, or they can continue down the path they are on, which will only result in Russia's demise.

Is that a threat?

Not from outside nation's but from her own people, who have and will continue to grow tired of Putin's lies as well as a government that tells them what to think.

Wow, speaking of being out of touch with reality. Are you actually aware of Putins current approval rating? Higher then they ever been. Over 72% of Russians APPROVE of Putins action with full support.

Please inform me of Obamas approval rating, it'll be nice to compare how many Americans stand behind their President, who keep drawing red lines for Russia and the rest of the world.

"Vladimir Putin's approval rating hits three year high as Russians back president over Ukraine "

www.independent.co.uk...
So what is Obamas rating?

What I find funny is the dismissal of any Ukrainian / western media source and the embracing of a few media outlets that are run by the Russian government.

Sight them. You obviously put some work into it since you know those media outlets, let us know what they are. Thank you

Tell me how Russian media is reliable when -
* Russian media claimed "nationalists" stormed their embassy in Kiev - A lie

Prove it. How is it a lie?

This is not a lie, this is fact of how US puppet Ukrainian Nazi thugs deal with Ukrainian Chanel 1 president that they didn't like;

www.youtube.com...

Ukrainian MP assaults television station chief for 'pro-Russian' stance

www.theguardian.com...

* Russian UN Ambassador says they had a written request to invade Ukraine - A lie

It is a lie, because there was NO INVASION of Ukraine. Are you even aware of difference between Ukraine and Crimea? Two different places, geographically.

* Russia's justification for invading Ukraine - Lies

There was no invasion, it is indeed a lie, there was no invasion of Ukraine.

Ukrainian media is more reliable / truthful than Russian media - and that's saying something.

That's saying that entire Ukrainian media is owned by the same people that right now hold highest positions in the puppet government.

This is how they deal with Russian media;

Attempt to jam Russian satellites carried out from Western Ukraine

rt.com...

They simply turn it off! Oh wow, that's not censorship at all, that's like freedom and stuff.

OSCE slams Ukraine’s repressive censorship of Russian TV channels

The OSCE has criticized Kiev’s “repressive” move to shut down the broadcasting of Russian TV channels after the media watchdog reported over 50% of providers have already fulfilled the order allegedly aimed at “ensuring national security and sovereignty.”

rt.com...

But hey, in US media it's exactly the opposite, it's all about some Russian censorship of Ukrainian channels.

So like wow, American media never lies, it's not like Cold War at all, there's no such thing as false flags, and only Russian media are the total liars, because America would never lie.

US puppet Ukraine can literally shut down Russian speaking channels, which is a FACT, but in the la-la land of "that's saying something" because it's "plain and simple", everything is nice and simple.

The age is changing fast, this is no longer the world of media-programmed opinions, this is the age of beliefs. Some still believe in the glorious liberty and democracy of Freedom USA, while other know for a fact what it really represents.

Xcathdra

If the argument some of you guys put forth is valid, you would have supported it by now with something other than anger / dismissal based on the simple fact you don't like it.

I have.

Three times. And I haven't got angry once.

And you've ignored it.

You're keen to obfuscate the discussion to the legality or morality of the election. That isn't what this thread is about.

The claim is 123% of people voted.

They didn't.

Everything else is irrelevant and noise.

reply to post by khimbar


Luckily I am not Russian and am free to exercise independent thought instead of being told what to believe without question.

You dismiss any source not Russian, and for the most part, I dismiss any source that is Russian since its evident they are not independent and are acting as a mouthpiece instead of news reporting agency.

The vote was illegal.
The vote was illegal under Ukrainian Law.
The vote was illegal under International Law.
The vote was rigged.
The international community does not accept it.
The UN does not accept it.
More people voted than were registered.
Non Ukrainians were allowed to vote.

Until verifiable evidence comes forward that addresses the issues raised, which Russia wont do, we are at an impasse.

Xcathdra
Until verifiable evidence comes forward that addresses the issues raised, which Russia wont do, we are at an impasse.

Again, you obfuscate with irrelevancies.

I have posted verifiable evidence of the speech announcing the result in which the blogger is proved incorrect. Literally. They added 200,000 to the result.

I have not dismissed any source at all, other than the blog from the OP which is demonstrably false.

Nor have you provided any sources at all to substantiate the total the blogger used. Any source you wish to substantiate this quote from Malyshev.

Xcathdra

When Sevastopol is included, 1,724,563 people voted,” he said

Any source you wish.

To help you, here's the video of the actual annoucement.

www.ntv.ru...

I think this is it too. Does he say 1,724,63 which one blogger says or 1,524,563 which every other translation/source says?

reply to post by Xcathdra

There was 135 international observers from 23 countries...the vast majority of which are pro-West...so far, no violations claimed.

Granted, I will wait until the actual report is released before claiming this is certain.

reply to post by khimbar


Russian sources are not verifiable nor accurate.

That is evident with the lies they report - like their embassy in Kiev.

So again I will wait for an independent evaluation. However I don't see Russia coming forward with evidence that can be used later at their war crimes trial...

All media that is not Russian / that is critical of Russia shut down / blocked.
OCSE observers refused entrance.
Foreign media in place threatened / assaulted / equipment stolen...

Yup.. nothing to hide there.

Again you seem to be keen to go off topic and prevaricate. The topic is 123% voted. Nothing else.

Xcathdra
reply to post by khimbar

 

Russian sources are not verifiable nor accurate.

There is actual video of him announcing the result. You can see yourself that the blogger added 200,000 to the total he said the guy announced.

Can you find any source of the total the blogger used?

khimbar
Again you seem to be keen to go off topic and prevaricate. The topic is 123% voted. Nothing else.

Xcathdra
reply to post by khimbar

 

Russian sources are not verifiable nor accurate.

There is actual video of him announcing the result. You can see yourself that the blogger added 200,000 to the total he said the guy announced.

What part of the term "independent source" is confusing you? Raw data and breakdowns, as I stated before. Not to mention no one has been able to provide a link to what law was used for the Crimean vote.

Having anyone from Russia / Crimea investigate said claims / verify results would be like having the SS investigate Auschwitz. Before you come back at me, the very same thing is applied to this side of the fence from your position.

Hence independent and raw data information coupled with the law they used.

Xcathdra

What part of the term "independent source" is confusing you? Raw data and breakdowns, as I stated before. Not to mention no one has been able to provide a link to what law was used for the Crimean vote.

Having anyone from Russia / Crimea investigate said claims / verify results would be like having the SS investigate Auschwitz. Before you come back at me, the very same thing is applied to this side of the fence from your position.

Hence independent and raw data information coupled with the law they used.

Again you're obfuscating. The law argument is irrelevant in this discussion.

You claim Malyshev said this.

At 20:00 in Crimea, 1,250,426 people voted,” Malyshev announced. “This result does not include Sevastopol. When Sevastopol is included, 1,724,563 people voted,” he said. Therefore, according to Crimean “authorities,” 474,137 people from Sevastopol voted in the “referendum.”

There is actual video of him saying this

Turnout in the referendum in the Crimea was the highest in recent years
"At 20:00 in the Crimea voted one million 250 thousand 426 people, - he said. - This is the result, excluding Sevastopol." "In view of Sevastopol voted one million 524 thousand 563 people," - said the head of the commission.

Which bit do you disagree with?

khimbar
Again you're obfuscating. The law argument is irrelevant in this discussion.

To an extent you are correct since Crimea violated the law by holding the referendum in the first place. That aside the law used is extremely important since it defines the manner in which who could vote.

khimbar
Which bit do you disagree with?

The fact its -
A - not coming from an independent source.
B - That the raw data has not been released, just the results.
C - That after the 123% discrepancy, an announcement was made about miscounting to remove it is a basis for questioning the vote itself.
D - That the law used for the votes is no where to be found.

If the argument is the people of Crimea wanted this, then knowing who could vote is paramount. If they allowed Russians to vote, if they shipped Russian voters into Crimea to vote, then the referendum is not "valid" in that regards because it was not just Crimean's wanting the change.

We need to see the law used as a basis for the vote itself.

in that regards its paramount as it creates the base for everything that comes after the vote.

Xcathdra
To an extent you are correct since Crimea violated the law by holding the referendum in the first place. That aside the law used is extremely important since it defines the manner in which who could vote.

FYI, the current Ukrainian government is outside of Ukrainian law.

Yanukovych was not removed from office by the procedures described in Article(s) 108-112.

Kind of funny how the 'law' only becomes relevant when needed...