A Conversation About Abortion you need to read!

My parents and some of my friends live and think within the context of their interpretation of the bible, and I think if it works for them its great - I adore them and love being in their company and its all good.

... if you want to quote from the bible in a forum like this, that's fine - just don't expect me to believe what you are quoting to be the absolute truth. I am thankful for the word of God and hold it in the highest reverence, but the bible is man's INTERPRETATION - scripture that has not only been written and re-written many times by men, but that has been translated several times over from other languages, and we all know how subtleties and the true and complete meaning can be lost in translation.

... My own views/truths are reflected in those of Amelia's ........Within and out of the context of the above paragraph, I fail to see how what you have quoted proves what Amelia has said to be wrong.




[edit on 1-12-2004 by c_au]

Originally posted by c_au

... if you want to quote from the bible in a forum like this, that's fine - just don't expect me to believe what you are quoting to be the absolute truth. I am thankful for the word of God and hold it in the highest reverence, but the bible is man's INTERPRETATION - scripture that has not only been written and re-written many times by men, but that has been translated several times over from other languages, and we all know how subtleties and the true and complete meaning can be lost in translation.

As for being written by man,

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,





As for abortion, remember this


Lev 18:21 "'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.



MOLECH (Mole; king) Transliteration of Hebrew word related to word for "king" but describing a foreign god or a practice related to foreign worship. The meaning of "Molech" is debated. Two views generally are proposed. One suggestion is that "Molech" denotes a particular type of offering--a votive sacrifice made to confirm or fulfill a vow. This viewpoint is supported by the fact that some Carthaginian-Phoenician (Punic) inscriptions from the period 400-150 B.C. imply that the word mlk is a general form for "sacrifice" or "offering." Such a meaning is possible in some passages (Lev. 18:21; 20:3-5; 2 Kings 23:10; Jer. 32:35).
A second suggestion is that "Molech" is the name of a pagan deity to whom human sacrifices were made. This deity often is associated with Ammon (compare 1 Kings 11:7--) "the abomination of the children of Ammon." Leviticus 20:5 condemns those who "commit whoredom with Molech" (see also Lev. 18:21; 20:3-5; 2 Kings 23:10; Jer. 32:35). Some recent archaeological evidence points to child sacrifice in ancient Ammon. Many scholars contend that all the biblical texts referring to Molech can be understood by interpreting it as a divine name.
The etymology of the term "Molech" is interesting. Scholars suggest that it is a deliberate misvocalization of the Hebrew word for king or for the related participle (molek), "ruler." They propose that the consonants for the Hebrew word for king (mlk) were combined with the vowels from the word for shame (boshet). Thus, this title was a divine epithet expressing contempt for the pagan god.
In times of apostasy some Israelites, apparently in desperation, made their children "go through the fire to Molech" (Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5; 2 Kings 23:10; compare 2 Kings 17:31; Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32:35). It generally is assumed that references like these are to the sacrifices of children in the Valley of Hinnom at a site known as Topheth ("Topheth" probably means "firepit" in Syriac). See Hinnom; Tepheth. Precisely how this was done is unknown. Some contend that the children were thrown into a raging fire. Certain rabbinic writers describe a hollow bronze statute in the form of a human but with the head of an ox. According to the rabbis, children were placed in the structure which was then heated from below. Drums were pounded to drown out the cries of the children.
An alternate view contends that the expression "passed through Molech" refers not to human sacrifices but that parents gave up their children to grow up as temple prostitutes. Such a view appeals to Leviticus 18 where throughout the chapter the writer is concerned with sexual intercourse (especially vv. 19-23). Another view sees an original fire ceremony dedicating, but not harming children, that later was transformed into a burnt-offering ceremony.
The practice of offering children as human sacrifice was condemned in ancient Israel, but the implication is clear in the Old Testament that child--sacrifice was practiced by some in Israel (2 Kings 21:6; 23:10; 2 Chron. 28:3; Ps. 106:38; Jer. 7:31; 19:4-5; Ezek. 16:21; 23:37,39). The Exile seems to have put an end to this type of worship in Israel. However, it lingered on in North Africa and among the Carthaginian Phoenicians into the Christian era.


[edit on 1-12-2004 by edsinger]

"As for being written by man,

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, "

.....whoever Tim is/was ... I don't know what he meant by God-breathed but Scripture being useful for teaching, correcting and training in righteousness ... wow - I totally agree! Praise be to Tim!


.... the rest is goobledygook to me and burning children ... eh? wtf you talking about?

Originally posted by edsinger
Wrong again, we haven't even got that far and post-abortion counseling is alot more common than you think.

Probably not covered as it is a 'religious' issue.

I have had miscarriages in my family so you haven't even a clue.

I was mainly questioning the ethics behind you posting the graphic picture [now link] when there may be women who have had miscarriages here.. would you have shoved that pic in the faces of your family members who have had miscarriages?
Also I question the ethics of you calling people 'murderer' [judge not lest ye be judged] as the term suggests malice as intent ..if a sister, mother or wife of yours got raped or had to terminate a life threatening pregnancy.. would you call her that? And why do you think you have the right to judge other people?

And how is post abortion councelling a religious issue and not a psychological one?

[edit on 2-12-2004 by riley]

Originally posted by c_au
.... the rest is goobledygook to me and burning children ... eh? wtf you talking about?

It is God identifying the Canaanites who sacrificed their children to Molech, today, some sacrifice the child for a boat payment, vacation, new car. Children are expensive no doubt but whom do these people worship?

I see .... well it may be true for some people but perhaps not for the majority ...I don't claim to know all the reasons, and anyway its not my business.

For me its like this .... of course prevention is better than cure - it is infinitely better! I have 2 beautiful daughters in their late teens. They know all about reproduction, contraception and safe sex practices. They choose not to be active and as a parent I am relieved. But if either of them fell pregnant, I would not force my will on her, I would sit down with her and together go through the facts and implications of all her options so that she can make an informed decision - a decision that is right for her! Depending on the circumstances I MAY have a personal preference for a course of action, but I will NOT force her to have an abortion, or go for adoption, or keep the baby..... and I would strenuously object to anyone forcing her to do anything against her will. I would support her in her decision whatever that may be, because you can bet that whatever course she takes will be a very difficult one. And I will love her no matter what.

But Ed I would like to thank you for starting this thread on this very sensitive issue - its been thought provoking and heated to say the least and for me it has clarified my views. Look forward to more of your posts!

... you know what, that Tim dude was right ... scripture IS useful ... and although I am not in the habit of quoting from the bible and will not be taking up the habit ... I will quote ...

John said that Jesus said, "You shall know the Truth, and the truth shall set you free".

This has just popped into my head, and I'm not sure where it came from ... it goes, " He who wields his bible as his sword is nonetheless wielding his sword"

I reckon Shakespeare is useful too ...

"To Thine own Self be True"


.... Light, love and truth of God ......
xxxxx




[edit on 2-12-2004 by c_au]

I have to ask a serious question then, if and I mean IF she did get pregnant and decided on a abortion, you would let her do it knowing that YOUR grandchild would be killed? Did I understand that right?

Seriously? IF she fell pregnant, I would let her know that I will be there for her, and help her financially and in her day to day routine taking care of the baby if she decides to keep him/her, but ultimately the decision is hers ....... and I will be fine with that because I know that if and when the time is right, I will be a granma.

What about you? ... I don't know if you have a son or daughter, but IF, YOUR daughter fell pregnant (and hopefully not through any violation of her), and she wanted to terminate the pregnancy, what would you do?

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
I know that liberals are always up in arms about preventing the US from becoming a fascist state full of doublespeak and manipulation of the truth--just like in Orwell's "1984"--so I'm sure they would back up my modest proposal.

I seriously doubt that, they think it is perfectly moral for a mother to choose to kill a child for any circumstance. They always claim what about the mothers life but are not willing to limit this practice to only that, they see nothing morally wrong with it.

Now wait just one minute there,..................., being a Liberal or not a Liberal, has nothing to do with it. I happen to be a Democrat BUT I do NOT beleive in abortions,........ except to save the mother's life, if the doctor deems it necessary. The most immoral law-suit that the US Surpreme Court ever voted to make legal IS Roe vs Wade . It opened the door for women to abort any and all pregnacies if they so choose to as their way of birth-control and this is WRONG !!!! If a woman thinks she does not to be a mother, then let her go get "fixed" so she doesn't have to worry about it instead of getting abortion after abortion, after all,........... it's not the Human-fetus's fault that the woman can't or won't control her sexual behavior, if she wants to "play" as an adult she needs to take responsibility for her actions and the same holds true for the "Man".

At one time I also had thought abortion should be allowed if the woman/girl had been raped and it produced the pregnancy but I had changed my view on that too. Why? Because in 1977 I was "very" pregnant when I had been forcibly-raped by knife-point, by an animal that my husband and I knew.

If the child was a product of rape or a product of love but the mother was raped during the pregnancy,........... there is still the ugliness of the rape tied in with the pregnancy that the woman has to mentally deal with. In my case,........... the rape made me MORE protective of my baby girl and my other children, more so with my daughter. Do I look at her with distaste just because I was pregnant with her when I was raped,.................. Nope, I do not,.......... I look at her with a mother's love,........... after all it wasn't her fault.
In other words, RAPE IS NOT a good excuse to abort a baby, only a medically-deemed/life or death situtation for the mother is.

Some may say,.................. well what if there's something wrong with the fetus,................. that is still NOT an excuse to abort,......... it still has the right to live and if the woman doesn't want to keep it, then leave it at the hospital.


ed or whoever made the remark about nurses that were involved in abortions,.............. you are very wrong in what you sad, at least partly. I have an Aunt use to work at a hospital that did abortions - sometimes, my Aunt is a GOD-fearing Christian and hated it when she was told to scrub-up to help with these abortions (if she was on duty at the time ), but it was part of her job-discription as a RN/Surgerical nurse,............ , she said that she could never get passed the horror ( never get use to it) of seeing the tiny arms (severed limbs), legs/feet, body, head as the baby is being aborted, she said that sometimes, it was a whole-baby that would abort after a solution had been "shot" into the womb and the baby/fetus would be pitched into a trash-container and left to die if it wasn't already dead. My Aunt would "cry" when she talked about it. So you see, sometimes a nurse is forced to help with an abortion,...... even when it goes against everything she beleives in,........... just so she can provide for her family.

Originally posted by nanna_of_6
At one time I also had thought abortion should be allowed if the woman/girl had been raped and it produced the pregnancy but I had changed my view on that too. Why? Because in 1977 I was "very" pregnant when I had been forcibly-raped by knife-point, by an animal that my husband and I knew.

If the child was a product of rape or a product of love but the mother was raped during the pregnancy,........... there is still the ugliness of the rape tied in with the pregnancy that the woman has to mentally deal with. In my case,........... the rape made me MORE protective of my baby girl and my other children, more so with my daughter. Do I look at her with distaste just because I was pregnant with her when I was raped,.................. Nope, I do not,.......... I look at her with a mother's love,........... after all it wasn't her fault.
In other words, RAPE IS NOT a good excuse to abort a baby, only a medically-deemed/life or death situtation for the mother is.

What happened to you is truly sickening.. and I hope the bastard got punnished for it.. if the legal system didn't get him hopefully life did. Rape is one thing but attacking the most vulnerable is even more cowardly.
What I don't quite understand is you were already 'very' pregnant [final trimestor?] so you would have already established an untarnished bond before you were attacked. I would not assume any women would resent a baby she was already carrying.. [though I've been told it changes self body image [feeling dirty etc.]] .. I see it more that you were both victims which also may be what makes you more protective of her.
I commend you for the courage of being able to talk about this however I don't think a woman being raped during pregnancy and a woman getting pregnant through rape are comparable situations [though neither should happen at all] as the non rape one is still the product of love. The traumas have their own seperate issues.
If some women are mentally strong enough to carry a rape concieved pregnancy best wishes to them and they should be supported.. but if others aren't they shouldn't be forced to endure it against their will.. her psychological welfare should be a priority.. but I guess with Post traumatic syndrome, depression etc it would technically fall under the 'medical' exception anyway.

Originally posted by c_au
What about you? ... I don't know if you have a son or daughter, but IF, YOUR daughter fell pregnant (and hopefully not through any violation of her), and she wanted to terminate the pregnancy, what would you do?

I would do everything within my power to save my grandchild. If my daughter was a minor then she would not have one. If adult, I would convince her otherwise, whatever the reason, the child does not deserve death.

Originally posted by nanna_of_6

In other words, RAPE IS NOT a good excuse to abort a baby, only a medically-deemed/life or death situtation for the mother is.

Some may say,.................. well what if there's something wrong with the fetus,................. that is still NOT an excuse to abort,......... it still has the right to live and if the woman doesn't want to keep it, then leave it at the hospital.

We rarely agree but I do agree with you in this case and than you for sharing your story, liberal or not, you recognize the value fo life.

Thank you.

As for your Aunt, I feel sorry for her as I do not believe I could take part, and if forced to I would be VERY vocal about and during it so they never ask again.......Let the fetus die outside the womb and yet people still think they are not human.....sick.

Originally posted by edsinger
If my daughter was a minor then she would not have one.

Like you can control that...what if she have sex with a guy and the condom brake and...uh oh she is pregnant and she is like "minor"
You can't live her life....and no one is SURE that their daughter won't do that

Enough for me on this thread...gives me headache

Amelia