Revisit: The conspiracy of extreme theism

Well, it's always interesting here at ATS. Given Mr. Bush's "crusade", the world has hardly ever experienced the tension amongst the big three theologic viewpoints essentially springing from the same ancient singular God: Judiasim, Islam, Catholicism/Christianity. I though it good to revisit and update a post from this forum's past.


Stepping back to consider all that has happened, and combining that with thoughts of historical events, we can see patterns. I like patterns. History has patterns, people have patterns, people make history, and as we know history always repeats.

From time to time, we encounter extreme theists here on ATS, it seems we have a higher saturation now more than ever. After some time reviewing other forums (including fundamentalist discussion boards), we are not alone. Also, in my involvement online (beginning with early political conspiracy BBS forums in 1985, 300 baud, woo-hoo!), extreme theists are always espousing that the end is just around the corner, and somehow, always cut from the same stone.

But unlike many non-theists, I�ve had a look at the inside of one example of extreme theism (fundamentalist Christian). I was once an extremist in training. I was being taught to believe that anyone who was not 'saved' would go to hell. I was told not to have any friends who were not saved, not to read material written by people not saved, not to listen to music performed by people not saved, and so on.

Many years later (26!), I can see the results of this type of extreme theist training in several people I meet in person, and encounter here online. The extreme theist is unable to regard any topic without some kind of Godly consideration. To the extreme theist, every stressful world event portends the end-times. Indeed, the Christian extreme theist training encourages rapt anticipation of the end-times described in Revelation (Muslims anticipate virgins... hmm... sounds more fun) . Forget that billions might suffer horrible pain and suffering, the end is coming the end is coming! Hurray!

The extreme theist created from this kind of conspiracy of the spirit, is intolerant to anything not of their brand of theism. They have been deeply conditioned to believe their interpretation of Christianity (or Islam, or what-have-you) is the one and only true version of not only their brand of dogma, but that all others are pushing lies and deceit. The extremist may go as far as bombing abortion clinics, or strapping TNT to their bodies and running into crowded areas.

But you don't need to be extreme to be part of the extreme theism conspiracy. More moderate Christians/Jews/Muslims often don't deny the views of the extremists, they're just not ready (or lack the conviction) to state them with such veracity. Aspects of the extreme theist thinking find their way into more moderate theists. Recent revelations of extreme fundamentalist influence in our country's policy is disturbing. This country (USA) is all too often using the extremist view of Christianity as a guide for how to handle current world affairs.

Herein lies the danger to humanity. Consider for a moment (please) you and your teachers may be mistaken. Will the overwhelming mass of humanity with the same root God, but conflicting beliefs (Judaism, Islam, Christianity), bring about end-times? Not as a result of prophecy coming true, but from a subconscious desire to see that prophecy happen, and hence, influence their actions.

Will we reach a critical mass of extremism in all three religions that cause the unstoppable chain reaction no matter what we do? In this case, is fervent belief in prophecy, causing humans to move events so that prophecy is fulfilled?

If this manipulation of the psyches of millions of people not a conspiracy, then what is? And perhaps, it is the grandest of all conspiracies.

Who sees the pattern?



Tolerance. Listen. Learn.

At least I think I do.


You are saying that because of so-called 'truths' in certain faiths, that people live their lives as they were lies. The so-called 'truth' in religion drives people to form dogmas and virtues that would normally or otherwise be non-existant if it wasn't for the major indocrinating religions of our time. That the organized religions are nothing but ways to control the people by seperating them by the doctrines of the major faiths, like Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. Is that what you mean???

Are you saying that because of these religions or these faiths that people have formed irrational views on the earth and the people on it??? Is that what you mean???

Are you saying that the world has made good out of bad, and bad out of good, by manipulating the faiths to form beliefs that bring the believer to a false reality???

Is that what you are trying to examine???

Originally posted by Abraham Virtue
You are saying that because of so-called 'truths' in certain faiths, that people live their lives as they were lies.

Not quite, though that's perhaps an interesting interpretation to explore.


Most are aware I'm an atheist, and most know that I still respect the beliefs of others, and am reasonably well versed in Christian dogma and Biblical study. My atheism affords a degree of detached retrospection others may not have.

Assume for a moment this idea, the original singular God of creation is real. From ancient beliefs in this one god, several methods of worship have sprung, some Judaism, a few twists of Islam, and heaping hoard of Christian faiths. Within all possible twists of dogma, each has an extremist vein of worshipers with voracious intentions of conversion. To them, everything else is a lie or not of true faith.

These extremists in each belief system don't just germinate from moderate folk, they happen somehow. Well, how? And why? History has proven over and over again that tolerance, acceptance, and compassion are not only important, but vital. Yet, intolerance, rejection, and hate are the foundations of extremist views (whether they admit it or not).

Why is this happening?

It's all well and good (for a fundamentalist) to say he is tolerant of other beliefs and other religions.
But doing so, allowing other religions to exist uninjured, over time plants a seed of doubt in the fundamentalist's own mind.
As long as the other religion exists, there is the thought - what if I am wrong and they are right? I've wasted my life! and blahblahblah.
Then you start to hate the other religion for making you doubt. The other religion and its followers is to blame. So you hate. And eventually hate leads to .... .... .. .. ..




as to why there seems to be an increase in hate... , has the information boom of the last few decades introduced many people for the first time to these 'other religions' and done so in a way that makes them appear evil?



[Edited on 16-5-2003 by quango]

Originally posted by William

Herein lies the danger to humanity. Consider for a moment (please) you and your teachers may be mistaken. Will the overwhelming mass of humanity with the same root God, but conflicting beliefs (Judaism, Islam, Christianity), bring about end-times? Not as a result of prophecy coming true, but from a subconscious desire to see that prophecy happen, and hence, influence their actions.

I see what your saying William. The Now and these secret societies want to fulfill ancient prophecy (i.e bush and his crusade). History does repeat it�s self and often in the same place. Look at Jerusalem the atmosphere is sill the same as in the days of Jesus. Now instead of the Romans oppressing the Jews the Jews are oppressing the Arabs.

I was raised Christian/catholic/Lutheran. But deep down in my heart I had a feeling that I was being misled, not really lied to but mislead. Now that I have done some studying I see that I have been misled. But the problem is that we humans never really want to learn for ourselves, I think were afraid of what we will find.

You can lead a horse to water but you can�t make it drink. People want something to believe in so bad that they will follow but they won�t take that next step and quench there spiritual thirst. I still believe in Jesus because his message was simple however I don�t believe that he was God. I think that the true path to God is finding the truth within yourself and the world around you. I think that is what enlightening yourself is all about.

The problem with the secret societies is that the elite few know the truth through doctrines that have been passed down. Instead of revealing the truth to everyone they chose who they will based on there allegiance to the group. When you think about it you can�t really blame them. All that power blinds them and they think that they can have there �Heaven� on earth.

I remember when I found out that a teacher that I held in high respect was an atheist. I was shocked until I talked to him and saw why he was one. He told me something to this extent � Why should I believe that, If I don�t believe this or I don�t believe that I am going to hell. I create my reality. Everything that happens to me is because I have made choices that cause thing to come out the way they do�.

Then it dawn on me. The kingdom of God really is in you. We all have a small part of the Most high in us. A majority of us just don�t listen. I still respected my teacher to this day because he is a good man. I just feel like the ills of mankind and the extremist have warped the true message so much that many people don�t even want to be associated and become atheist.

I�m curious what made you become an atheist. If you don�t want to answer it�s cool. I just see you as having mad knowledge and I just want t see things from your prespective

Interesting William...........


I do not believe myself to be a ''fundamentalist'' ............

Although it may seem to a few that i am...........

I am quite tolerant of other religions........if i have to back up my belief with a question offered to me i would answer ........as I am sure all religions will do the same.!!!
Yes there are ''those'' that believe that they need to go into extreme measures to get their ''truth'' across by using ..........Violence, prophecy , murder (God told me to do it ) and much more ...........

The truth i believe lies not in any of those violent categorized extreme measures.........but within yourself!!!

If you as a person has lived with good upright morals(and todays morals have been shattered by false ones)then one can only be judged on that.
But what if the 'morals'' of today is to only think of yourself and who gives .....what others think.......What if society as a whole is there ,to destroy all Rightous things of life........To make believe that each individual is 'right'' andthat there is no ''wrong''' .....Who is to say that '''Bad '' is ''Good''' or ''good '' is ''Bad'''
Is there any way of knowing what is real or true any more???
Is there life beyond death???
What are we here for???
Is not all mankind one and the same???


William ,mankind probably will bring an end to all ...........being the result of prophecy or what have you.......only because i believe that it has come to that........
There is no ground for 'truth' any more..........
People accept life as we know it............living here on earth today........and nothing more.........living to fullfill our desires of our existence in whatever pleasure we want..............
Not seeing that the world is destroying itself because of man's own thinking of what is ''truth'' ..........

Religions of today are nothing but self governing hypocrites ...........only to have themselves believe it's all ''truth'' for the love of God......
God is love....................but all people have no love....

Love is whatever you believe it to be.........
Love can be something that you believe in what you are doing is for God ..............eg......the Crusade.......God did not ask the people to go kill and murder mankind......
People mistook ''truth'' and twisted it to suit their '''Religion''' and give it a name...........

The truth is , that the teachings of Jesus Christ taught otherwise.............love all mankind............and your neighbour...........as yourself.......
Who does that today?
All people believe to be 'superiour' over another.....

I have made no claim to know everything..........
I have not said that you must be a Christian in order to live in goodness........

I have said ''truth'' lies within Jesus Christ and to this day , i believe so..........

That does not make me go out and .........murder

..........or for that matter, hate other religions.........

I dont hate anyone...........it is their way of thinking that makes them believe it is so.....

I do believe that Life has it's meaning for all of us........and to look at the future with happiness on Earth'' is a lie...........
We can'' live it up'''and do ''as thou wilt'' but that is not what life is about.............it is not what you make ''life '' to be based on ''man's law and mans'''morals ''...........life itself without good judgement will fall .............and with it mankind will destroy itself because '''life '' has no meaning.............we are led to believe that all is '''good'''' as long as it feels right...........
How wrong we are!!!

To live a life based on '''the end is soon'' is wrong..........but to be aware of such thing can be possible is in itself a good thing.........

We all must die...........even the rich , poor , small , big........we all end up as dirt..........
We have to account for our life on earth.........whether you believe it to be a'' lie'' or the ''truth''..........

I think of Death every day, not because it will happen one day, because i know it will (it could happen today )..........does not mean i sit here and wait for '''dooms day'' to happen........or for that matter go do something stupid and kill myself..........or wait for some ''U.F.O'S to come and take me..........

When the time comes for each and every one of us......then each will know .........
Knowing God does not come from the Bible , or the Torah , or the Quran............Yes these are books .......
But true zeal toward striving for the truth and letting go of ''worldly ways of thinking'''and humbling ourselves that we are mere nothing of what we make ourselves to be and for once in our life fall down and say we are nothing without the Created universe.......we are nothing but a ''Body ''that will one day become dirt and what is left is our conscience''''soul''' our true conscience will speak .............we will account for all we did in this world.......
For God made man in His image, and breathed ''life'' into him........we go back to what was the 'incorupt ' before man disobeyed God's will.........
We have to give an account of our life on earth.........

So William , you tell us.............
Why does Humanity have war........World war 1
........World war 11
.......What makes one go to these extremes.............They must all believe that God does not exist...........Cause if they did believe in God , they would not allow such HATRED to befall all of Mankind.....
Yes some say ''I believe in God, but that is a lie......and they truly are lying to themselves and all people......

Sorry for the lenghty thread.....not sure if that's what this thread was about.......
Any way....................

I was one of those fundamentalist Christians for 18 years. I used to really annoy people because I'd try to convert them at every opportunity, and at the same time ignore their point of view as "wrong".

My first pastor was John MacArthur Jr. of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California. I was taught to have zero tolerance of and no contact with New Ager�s and even Christians (Pentecostals and Charasmatics) who believed differently than the teachings of John MacArthur. I blindly followed that admonition and avoided those groups. I remember that even though I had many unanswered questions about the Bible and Christianity, I was afraid to question anything or seek my own answers. I was terrified to even look at anything that was considered to be occult in nature. Because I was taught that Mason�s are a secret satanic organization, I would not socialize with them and never took what they said seriously. I remember how I would isolate and alienate fellow workers by sitting alone and reading the Bible on breaks and during lunch.

Another church I attended was Church on the Way in Van Nuys, California. Pastor Jack Hayford is considered an extreme charismatic preacher and would teach that demons inhabit objects like crystals and that we should �cleanse� our homes of that satanic doorway. Its s common practice at the Church on the Way for the entire congregation to begin speaking in tongues. I always felt �less than� everyone else because I didn�t have the �gift�.

I attended the Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Santa Monica, California. The vineyard was begun by John Arnott, who is known for his movement called the Toronto Blessing. The Vineyard has some really wild meetings. I�ve seen people walking around bent over because they said they were carrying the Lords burden. Also, many who attend Vineyard meetings claim to have their amalgam teeth fillings changed into gold during the service. Another characteristic of the Vineyard meetings is called �Holy Laughter�, when members would begin laughing hysterically. I remember being depressed in that meeting and really needed a good laugh. I prayed and asked God to give me the holy laughter, but nothing happened.

I�ve also attended Assembly of God meetings and seen people swooning, spinning around and falling, or being �slain in the Spirit�. I could never figure out why I never had those experiences and again, felt left out. I�m now left wondering how much of that stuff was an act to �look� holy or Spirit filled � and how much was self-hypnosis.

Also, in Charismatic meeting a phenomenon happens called the �Word of Prophecy� when a member supposedly gets a direct revelation from God to share with the congregation. Members would blindly receive this as being directly from God especially for them.

I've certainly seen the pattern that Christians act out and regret that I alienated so many people when doing that myself.

Yours truly was once an atheist but became a Christian as a result of a miraclous event. However I was first associated with a evangelical teaching ministry. This was a Bible believing ministry, but it did not teach the same things as the fundamentalist Christian chuches. In fact the fundamentalist churches in our city, used to crack down on us because after our Bible classes, we would sit around and drink beer and play darts (and a lot of beer). The salient message of the Bible is Grace
(Ephesians 2:8 "for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. ") These churches have forgotten that message and teach a form of Christianity that would be completely foreign to what Paul taught almost 2000 years ago. In fact it saddens my heart that these churches such as deepwaters attended actually defame the name of our Savour, the Lord Jesus Christ with their teachings.

Originally posted by abstract_alaoI?m curious what made you become an atheist. If you don?t want to answer it?s cool. I just see you as having mad knowledge and I just want t see things from your prespective

It feels right is the best explanation I can offer for now.

I tried hard to be a Christian... but deep down, I knew it didn't feel right for me. I didn't have the conviction of the others.

Which leds to where I hope this discussion might go... is the "extreme theism" we see in all dogma, merely nothing more than people's response to doubt? You know... the mental reaction (that is very human) when you subconsciously have doubt -- double the veracity of your belief in order to convince yourself. And when that doesn't "kill the demons of doubt", double the veracity again and again.

Originally posted by helen670
We have to give an account of our life on earth.........

Ah... guilt.

The double-edge sword of original sin, and accounting for our sin when we die.

Why live life that way? Do we really need to believe all of us are born as sinners, and that someday, we will stand before judgment in order to behave? I don't think so. There are many cultures that do very well without those two cornerstones.

And, I would submit, that these two attributes of implied guilt foster a preoccupation with feeling guilty, and hence, cause innumerable societal issues. For if these two pillars of belief caused real concern in us over the way we conduct ourselves, the national Christian culture would be far different than it is now.

This I believe is an excellent example of how attributes of extreme theism effect most or all theists within a society.

To our Jewish and Muslim readers, are there similar attributes within your beliefs that offer similar insight?

Perhaps the worst tragedy for religions today is the "doctrines" or religious teachings, and how they are being completely used out side the original intent. It was first said that a Christian was one who followed the word of Christ. What I don't exactly like about organized religion is the complete lack of just that. From what we have at our disposal is a two thousand year old translation of a translation. Who knows what Christ actually said?! Its understood or at least should be that meaning is lost upon translation.
I believe that extreame religious fanatics and other too exuberent believers should be approched/engaged with some degree of caution, as they have in effect dedicated themselves to something without indeed knowing the roots and history of chosen religion(not all but most, theones who have can be worse!). Anti-religion is simular just opposite, like political groups, which of course like some religions should be approched with caution, LoL.

there's one "theism" that won't use it's beliefs as a pretext to war....

Atheism...

I still find it fascinating that people are willing to base their lives, and indeed their aspirations of what lies beyond death, on books written thousands of years ago, by people who believed thunder was the anger of the gods.... They weren't right about the Earth being flat, or the Earth being the center of the solar system, indeed the universe...but we're perfectly willing to believe that they had all-knowing knowledge of the afterlife? Please.... I find it disturbing that so many people (the majority it seems) are so gullible....

Also, there's a cultural presupposition that the Abrahamic God *MUST* be the correct deity -- the one, true deity.

There are other, older deities (no, not idiotic concepts like "The Dark Gods" which were invented by scifi/fantasy writers within the past 100 years) -- the Hindu Vedas, for instance, are about the same age as the Bible. The writings of one of the older religions in the area (Zororasteranism) are actually the source material for the Bible... Jainism's texts were also written at the same time.

Each has a different "take" on a divine deity/divine ruler. Each has the same amount of evidence for its deity being the One True Ruler. Each has prophets with accurate prophecies. Each has tales of people being resurrected (often by prophets) and each has tales of afterlife.

If you allow the "because this holy book says it's so" then all three are books of truth ... but have different gods ruling the universe. But the gods' rules are different enough that you could be picking the wrong one.

Based on the evidence, Buddhism is just as likely as Christianity to be the "real religion" handed down by God. Buddhism also overcomes some of the major ethical problems inherent in Christianity of the head deity telling people to do one thing while he (the deity) continues to act unethically.

A bit of cut and paste from a Christian Apologetics site about the problem of anti-intellectualism in the Christian community

www.atlantaapologist.org...

SIX ENEMIES OF APOLOGETICS
by Douglas Groothuis, PH.D.

The evangelical world today suffers from apologetic anemia. Despite the fact that holy Scripture calls believers to give a reason for the hope we have in Christ (1 Peter 3:15; see also Jude 3), we sadly lack a public voice for truth and reason in the marketplace of ideas. We do not have a strong intellectual presence in popular or academic culture ....

He then gives the 6 enemies of intellectualism that hamper anyone doing Apologetics:

1. Indifference

Too many Christians don�t seem to care that Christianity is routinely ridiculed as outdated, irrational, and narrow-minded in our culture.

2. Irrationalism

For some Christians, faith means belief in the absence of evidence and argument. Worse yet, for some faith means belief in spite of evidence to the contrary. The more irrational our beliefs, the better--the more �spiritual� they are.

When Christians opt for irrationalism, they become just another �religious option,� and are classified along with Heaven�s Gate, the Flat Earth Society, and other intellectually impaired groups. In the wake of the Heaven�s Gate suicide, several major magazines such as Esquire, Newsweek, and US News and World Report claimed that the faith of those who ended their life in accordance with Marshall Applewhite�s science fiction religion were no stranger that Christians, who believe ridiculous things as well. Sadly, the behavior of some Christians gives impetus to such accusations.

3. Ignorance

Many Christians are not aware of the tremendous intellectual resources available to defend �the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints� (Jude 3).

I thought this next point was well mentioned in light of the badly written but wildly popular "end time" series called "Left Behind."

Christian bestsellers, with rare exceptions, indulge in groundless apocalyptic speculations, exalt Christian celebrities (whose characters often do not fit their notoriety), and revel in how-to methods. You can tell much about a movement by what it reads, and by what it does not read.

(I didn't agree with his 4th point, BTW)

5. Arrogance and intellectual vanity

At the other end of the spectrum of error lies the arrogance of the know-it- all apologist, who is more interested in displaying his or her arsenal of arguments than in defending the truth in a godly manner.

Arrogance also occurs when some apologists accuse other believers of heresy without sufficient evidence.

6. Superficial techniques or schlock apologetics

Some who get excited about apologetics may become content with superficial answers to difficult intellectual questions. Our culture revels in rapid responses to most anything, and technique is king. Some Christians memorize pat answers (my note: or endless strings of Bible verses) to apologetic questions--such as the problem of evil or the creation/evolution controversy--which they dispense without a proper engagement of the issues and without an empathetic concern for the soul that raises the question.

The article, as you can see, is quite thought-provoking and worth a full read, even for the non-Christian. It also has some debate techniques that I sort of need to hammer into my own head (I argue Apologetics with the Christians.)

"Based on the evidence, Buddhism is just as likely as Christianity to be the "real religion" handed down by God. Buddhism also overcomes some of the major ethical problems inherent in Christianity of the head deity telling people to do one thing while he (the deity) continues to act unethically."

Remember, the majority religion of the world....

is Buddhism

Conspiracy? You present no conspiracy, William, merely an attempt to give all three book religions the ol' Three Stooges slap.

That's it. Finish your whiskey, and step outside. Me and a couple of my friends are gonna gun you down like a dog, and then we'll go back to our own bickering!

In all seriousness, much of what you described as "fundamentalism" (whatever that means) Christianity is simply believing what the Bible says. The Bible makes it 100% clear that the only way to Heaven is by accepting Christ. If you believe that, there is no way you can say that all religions are on equal footing or that all roads lead to Rome. As far as not having friends that aren't Christian and not listening to secular music, I certainly understand where he his coming from, but I have to disagree with that tactic as I've never seen it work successfully. Young folks usually learn to resent not being able to hang out with Bob, the unsaved yet decent kid down the street or listen to Niel Diamond tunes.

I can't speak for the other two book beliefs, but with Christianity, it seems that other people seem to want to say to Christians, "It's ok for you to believe in God and all that stuff, just don't act like you do, elsewise we will label you a fundamentalist!"

I don't seem to see how "extreme" views of Christianity are being used to guide America's operation in the world. In what respect, as I've seen nothing distinctly scriptual about any of our international onsgoings.

Are you referring to the rumor that Shrub is attempting to push us to the End Time by creating a climate in which it will come to pass?

Originally posted by Gazrok
"Based on the evidence, Buddhism is just as likely as Christianity to be the "real religion" handed down by God. Buddhism also overcomes some of the major ethical problems inherent in Christianity of the head deity telling people to do one thing while he (the deity) continues to act unethically."

Remember, the majority religion of the world....

is Buddhism

Ones human lack of understanding doesn't make any of God's actions unethical.

"The Bible makes it 100% clear that the only way to Heaven is by accepting Christ. "

Just as the Torah, Koran, Tao te Tsing, Siddartha, etc. all make it 100% clear that the only way to Heaven/i.e. Enlightenment, is following their directives as well.

No matter how you slice it, only one (or none) can be right... Which means, the rest are wrong. I often wonder how much more in most religious texts, needs to be proven wrong, in order for us to get past this need for a "God".

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
In all seriousness, much of what you described as "fundamentalism" (whatever that means) Christianity is simply believing what the Bible says. The Bible makes it 100% clear that the only way to Heaven is by accepting Christ.

If you mean accepting christ message then yea you are right. But if you mean believeing that Jesus is God then You are wrong. There are many verses in the Bible that contradict your statement.

I mean seriously TC think about it. Why would God, the creator of the universe reveal �truth� to only one group of people, living in a backwater planet, in an isolated solar system that is part of only one of many galaxies. Truth is universal plain and simple

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

I can't speak for the other two book beliefs, but with Christianity, it seems that other people seem to want to say to Christians, "It's ok for you to believe in God and all that stuff, just don't act like you do, elsewise we will label you a fundamentalist!"

The other two books?!?! The torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament. So you don't read the whole bible?!?!?