No, abstract, I meanwhat I mean and I am not wrong, and the Bible does not contradict that point. The desire of the devil to keep people from understanding that point may cause one to become confused, or merely the simple desire to refute that particular religion may cause one to attempt to look for and create conflicts, but it isn't there. You see, that is the basic premise of Christianity.

God created man. Man screwed up. Man was no longer allowed in God's presence as God cannot look upon sin. Furthermore, Man is now legally mandated to go to the same place that was designed only for Satan and his demons.
God sends His only begotten Son to lead a perfect life, teach and then die as the sacrifice for us, so that all who believe in Him (Christ) as their savior, repent of their sins and ask forgiveness won't have to share the same fate as Satan, but will be reunited with God.

This is the Christian message. This is nothing new. As a matter of fact, it really seems nutty to be having this conversation.

Hence the discussion.


con·spir·a·cy
1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.

Okay then... here is a thought to digest.

At one point, every major religion has been founded on some very simple basic truths:
- worship your god
- don't do anything you'd not want done to yourself
- live as an example

Am I missing something here? I don't think so, even the 10 Commandments can be boiled down this this essence.

If it really is this simple, why isn't it? I submit that the "conspiracy" is the long history of man subverting, for their own purpose, the intent of beliefs. And as such, after centuries of conspiratorial effort, we have the three Abrahamic religions so far apart, that the balance of the globe seems at stake.

Thomas, you are perhaps my favorite Christian friend, but with all due respect, your view is fogged by the extremist viewpoints that have trickled down to your branch of faith. Similarly, there are several Muslims here I admire, and I believe they suffer from the same fog.

Why should any religion ever become more complicated than those three simple tenants? There is only one answer, because man has changed his religion (over time) to suit his own desires and selfishness. And there is your conspiracy.








[Edited on 16-5-2003 by William]

I think fundamentalism is a bad use of the word. I think literalist fits better. I am fundamental in my faith, what it all boils down to, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Follow that and I think your golden. It's the Literalists that scare me. Thoses who seem to be pushing the prophetical fullfillment of their particular flavor if religion. I think the literalists are purpetrating a self-fullfilling prophecy. They want it to happen, they push at the "emeny' to help push it along. The enemy pushes back with equal or disproportionate force and the tit for tat becomes a runaway train. I realize this is a slippery slope arguement but looking at the world today, I think it is fairly accurate.
I believe this is where we are heading for a few reasons.
1. The world is becoming "smaller" easier to navigate and communicate with people all over the world. I think this scares those who hold fast to extemist ideologies because they are being challanged by groups of people they never had to deal with before. This makes them more apt to lean towards more violent expressions of their literalism.
2. Because of this smaller world, these groups are faced with those different from them in culture, ecomonic policy, government and religion. This makes the literalist uncomfortable, they have no pidgeon holes for "new" people. Therefore they bceome more and more convinced at how "right" their own myopic ideals are, thus making it easier to hate these other groups. By retreating into your own ideals you make it easier to point the finger out to place blame because you have been convinced in the rightousness of your cause. This makes it easier to view "the other" as inhuman or less than civilized, which makes it easier to kill them.
I think this idea can be used not with lots of scenarios; the Democrat/ Republican intransigence and inability to do nothing but cast aspirtions and call the other groups stupid or ignorant while never REALLY fixing anything. It also works when you see bin Laden call for Jihad or Bush use the term Crusade. Clashes of wills. Clashes of ideals. Clashes of closemindedness.

my 25 cents worth.

"Thomas, you are perhaps my favorite Christian friend, but with all due respect, your view is fogged by the extremist viewpoints that have trickled down to your branch of faith."

Cop out. Again, if one has the gall to believe in the religion he claims to follow, if he attempts to actually read the book, commune with God and uphold the mandates, he is an extremist, is brainwashed, or his viewpoint is fogged. No need in me going any farther as my position is fogged, therefore I am biased to the point of my own unperceived error and undetectable inaccuracy.

Anyway, on to the conspiracy! Observer, do you believe their is a conspiracy to push us into some religious cataclysmic event? What gain would "they" have, and wouldn't they think that in doing so, they would be creating the event before its time and causing the result to be diffferent?

Honestly TC, I don't see the this as a Cabal of the world's ultra-elites pushing some agenda. When I say "they" I should have been more clear, it was to connotate more of a "insert Literalist religious dogma here." I am becoming of the opinion that the worlds "closeness", our ability to instantly chat with, for instance Cassini in England or Netchicken in Australia has forced a number of people who are fearful of intellectual expansion and the incorporating of other cultures further into their own righteousness. Thus allowing more mistrust (which can lead to hatred) to grow between peoples. It is our fault as a species not 10 really powerful lizards, or people, or hermit crabs or whoever is running the "cabal".
There, clear as mud.
I will have to revisit this later methinks.

"God sends His only begotten Son to lead a perfect life"

Bumming around with your buds, and a prostitute....sounds good to me too...don't know if it's "perfect" though....

I guess that's the only thing we agree on

Do you read the quotes that I and a number of others have posted?!?!?!

But why should you hate???
we may not agree with whatever they teach, but never Hate....
We disagree , but never Hate.........hate is such a violent word.........it makes people do stupid things.......
Hate is the opposite of Love........
If you have true love in your heart........then you would learn to detest the hateful things of this WORLD........
It is not that people appear to be 'evil' it is todays word of the century..........
An eye for an eye................He did me wrong, therefore I will do the same.........
That is not love............for if there was love........we would put our head down, and say '''Im basically doing the same thing he has done to me...therefore i am not any different.......what has one achieved by acting the same as the person who seeks to hurt us?
We are not acting out of love, but out of hate.........reverse the hate into love......

Yes we are tolerant of other religions.........but why plant any seed of doubt?
Doubt comes from evil......... why doubt if you have inner peace and love for any one that you meet?
Why doubt if you greet everyone with good intentions?
Why doubt if what you are truly''' doing is good and not seeking to destroy someone..........whether it be with hateful words, or whether it be with harming someone with force.........
If doubt comes into mind, and you ''truly'' are seeking rightousness, then it is a sign that something is not right..........

Jag........(Ephesians 2:8 "for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. ")
That is a good verse ..........it is not by mans grace or a ''spirit of babble'' that you are saved......
It is something only God knows..........
And why are we the people so concerned with ''miracles''? a miracle can disguise itself to act like it is good......a miracle can seem like a miracle because we so much want to see with our eyes..........
Any religion that forces anyone to be what they dont want to be , is not what God wants..........He gave a ''free will '' from the start......God wishes all to come to the truth............and never interferes with man's free will......That is why you have so many teachings of man made religions .......God wants you this way......or that way..........
God gave us ''free will'' because we have the capacity to think for ourselves...........and by allowing ourselves the path we lead to come to the truth........but being in honest goodness about that which we seek.......
Coming to the truth.......we feel it in our hearts and feel content with whatever befalls us........as long as inwardly we feel true peace and know that nothing in this world can take that away.............Out of love......we want to please God.........and not please Him with .....money , or Gold , but with Love towards our fellow man.........We may detest what others see as good , but hate not........
A church is '''people .....three or more makes a church.....ekklisiia(church) it is not how big the building is......it is about true love in our hearts that make up the true church of God..........

It is sad to see so many people fooled......and yes i will use the word ''fooled'' because you are so correct deepwaters in what you are saying.......
God is not something to be laughed at........no matter which way you make look at it!
Why would God grant someone of '''laughter of the Holy Spirit''??? To what or whom does that benefit ?
In fact, my cousin married a guy who was involved in the ''Charimatic Church''and he thought himself so worthy and started to think himself God and that none else was better then him.....alot of bad stuff happened.......which i wont go into........
God allows us ''free will'' because it is how we were created.........Free will is within us..........we allow that ''free will '' to be distorted because we lack true judgement...........we follow that of this world .........when God said ......'''MY world is not from this world.........we follow blindly people that leads the masses.........and not true love which is built within us......we allow our minds to be ''clouded'' with false 'hope'' and by doing so , we are blinded to the truth........
God never said to ''alienate'' our friends or our neighbours.........we are to love all creation..........and through love we have inner peace.......even toward our enemies........though we may hate what they do , we never personally hate the person........
Miracles of ''speaking in tongues'' is not from God......He does not work that way.........

William you say ''I tried hard to be a Christian... but deep down, I knew it didn't feel right for me. I didn't have the conviction of the others.

But why should you have that conviction???
Why should you even think that you have to convict any one???
You did not feel right?
In convicting others ?...........(you may think(i said think) that I convict others........but I say.......no I dont.........I simply 'defend'' what i say........I do not judge others!
With myself convicting others of their way, I am guilty of that same thing.....
That is true.......quote///we see in all dogma, merely nothing more than people's response to doubt? You know... the mental reaction (that is very human)
That mental reaction of doubt.......our subconscous.......that is our soul............
The demons to me William is very real........(i have had my experience of them)
That ''doubt'' is exactly the reason why we should believe in a Higher Power........even Darwin(Charles Darwin) could not explain certain things of the evolution theory which Today has been inplanted in the minds of the whole world...........
But '''Free will '' is given to each of us........and hopefully we all still have that..........which i guess, is a good thing.....

William.........original sin was the 'culprit'' of that ''guilt'' we feel today........God does not judge us of that ''original sin'' in Genesis.........
Because of the ''disobedience' of Adam and Eve......you shalt not surely die if you eat of that tree"said the serpant to Eve.........It is a bodily death........it is a falling away from God.........
The falling away allowed 'us' to become seperated by God and in doing so , we have ''guilt'' in our minds of something that does not feel right........
A child will in 'anger'' will break something and then look away or feel '''guilty'' ........it is a human reaction to feel ''guilt'' but not accepting the 'guilt'' is seriously more wrong.........we allow ourselves to be like an animal , to ''bite the hand that feeds us'' we become blind to ourselves that we are better then the next person.......we believe that we are only the better person , and by doing so , we convict others of the same conviction we have.........
Why are there ''psychiatrists???
I mean, why do we need them.........feeding them money so we could sit and talk to them for who knows how many hours or days or weeks???
Do they really help???(im sure many will say yes.....but how long does that last for?)

Feeling ''guilty'' is a human response to correcting yourself............you lower yourself ..........An apology feels great........though before the apology there is much ''doubt'' to why should one apoligise?

God loves ''guilt'' because we then put ourselves below God and allow the healing to take place..........we rid ourselves from the 'guilt'' ...........and it feels great!!!
Who in their right mind, would not accept a ''humble'' apology''???
Why does ''guilt'' involve a social issues....???
I believe , if anything, guilt is something to feel good about.......to aknowledge the thing you did.......is that bad???
But you have to correct that 'guilt'' as long as you have in good faith being honest about it, then that guilt goes away.....although not erased, but kept in memory for future remembrance..........as to not fall in that same ''hole'' as to speak.......
Without ''guilt'' our whole world would crumble.......as i believe it is doing now.........
People would destry each other without having any ''guilt'' whatsoever of their convictions...........
Sorry if answered your answer to Abstract......

So what is the ''original intent''???
Is it not the very words of Christ???
I admit, religions of today have misused the true teachings , but that does not mean God is dead........
The words of God are very true......and even today , they are still very true........it's modern thinking and man made ''religion'' that has distorted the true words of God.........God has not changed..........
Demons on the other hand have........they have kept ''up with the modern way of times'' to be accepted by gullible people that God does not exist .....they have distorted the way a man thinks to this earthly world........which will one day be gone...........
Caution.......yes i believe caution to any extremist religion or political or secret society that offers '''worldly power '''

Yes Byrd, there are many older religions then the Bible......but that means nothing.............it does not prove anything!
It merely states that man's way is to benefit mankind on earth.........it gives no proof of no God........

Being an older religion does not make it ''right'' or
''true'' or this must be it.............
All it sais is that mankind will accept anything that allows them freedom on earth..in this world........
Freedom to do as thy will with no benefit to one self......
just because one person believes in one thing and ten believe otherwise does not make the ten people have the ''truth'' ..........
eg.........Just say ''10% of the population have seen a U.F.O. does that mean it's false''lie''???
No.......it sais that 10% did see something............but because it was only 10% does not make it ''wrong'' or being a 'lie''.........
another eg........people seeing spirits or demonic beings(and not while your ''high'' on something............)
does that make them'''looney''???
No........it does not ,it merely sais 10% have seen something that others of uncertain circumstances cannot........
Mankind has always sought out to ''earthly power'' and have used that to define what is to believed and what is not to be beieved.........
There will always be that!
The world has changed, yes, but not the words of God.....no matter what ''new Age'' thinking way of life has become.....and it sais quite alot of ''modern'' way of life........We can become God is not anything New.......it is an old way come into this world...........and many people follow that path.........only to believe that somehow it is the ''way of today'''

That is right..........only one way is the right way!
There has to be one that is truth or none..........
Religious truths proven wrong???
In fact Gazroc, what exactly has been proven wrong???
The 20 th century in fact has proven on the contrary......many truths have been found and only to be disputed for the mere fact that it cannot be.......historical evidence sais otherwise.......

Not really. More like 30%..

"No one comes to the father except through me." - John 14:6

I'm gonna follow Helen and often link to websites from now on

www.answering-christianity.com...

Versus

www.thereligioustruth.com...

"I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge." - John 8:50

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he only he who does the will of My Father in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"I, even I, am the LORD. Beside me there is no savior." - Isaiah 43:11

"On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. 'Teacher,' he asked, 'What must I do to inherit eternal life?' 'What is written in the Law?' Jesus replied. 'How do you read it?' He answered: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live.'" - Luke 10:25-28

100%? Not even close.

You were doing so good helen until this. Only one way is right!?!?!? come on!?!??

If you want to get from point A to point B you don't have the take a one path. There are many diffrent paths to take. You beliefs are good for you however they don't coinside with other peoples belief. If you read your bible you will see. Truth is universal.

Yes abstract.......there are many paths to take.....but the path you take will lead to many individual truths.......not one universal truth...........

Abstract , i do look at other peoples beliefs........but not nessasarily have to be 'one mind '' with them......
Each path you take is a greater challange........you learn more the longer path you take........the short path may seem 'easy'' or feel right.........but that does not mean it will take you home............

Each path you take will lead some where........but not nessasarily be the 'true'' path you wanted it to be........
eg.......One big maze..............there are many paths that you see , but there is only one that leads you ''out''.........

There are many paths that look good............but not nessasarily have a good ending......

eg....If you have one bad apple(rotten).......and put that in a bucket full of good apples .....you get the other apples infected too........what must be done ?
take that rotten apple out and throw it away.........

eg.......there is only one God............there cannot be ''Gods'' that all lead to the one ''God''........there is only one true God...............One True God that created the whole universe............Not many Gods........

If I was to follow someone all my life............and at the end discover that it was all a mistake, would I change that path???
Of course I would......
I believe that mankind is here for that purpose......to find the true path that was some how lost........
I believe also that we are given certain prophetic revelation for our benefit(and I have not received any prophetic revelation)..........It makes sense to allow the ''Prophetic'' words to be heard .......so that we know what the future may be..............
So when the time is come.........we can allow our free will to chose the one univesal truth..........

I know many beleifs that stand for goodness........but the question remains .............is it the ''univesal truth''???
I have read many prophetic words of early church fathers(3rd century up till 20th century ) who lived their life in the desert(Monks of Mount Athos and other monastaries/)who dedicated their whole life to the one God with prayers and fasting ..........Being not under any religious church building, but only with the true words of God......Jesus Christ has left such ''rightousness'' in His teachings of how man is suppose to be and what to expect in the future........
How can I not benefit from what Jesus Christ taught?
How can I fail in His teachings if iIdo as He sais???
How can I not hear His words and not follow such good teachings?
It will only benefit me if I do as Jesus Christ taught.......

But the sad thing is we are all human and we sin by our free will(that was given to us) which gives in to easily to ''bad'' things rather then ''good'' things......It is easier to do 'bad'' then to do 'good'' and we constantantly need reminding ourselves......that we are nothing........ that we need to humble ourselves before God and admit that we have failed and need His help.......Truly ask for help.......

I dont believe that i am harming any one in what i believe........in fact , many people have not even heard of many 'prophetic' revelation that was written down to understand and see what our future holds by many great fathers of the Early church......
And im not talking about Nostradamus or Edgar Casey, or astologists or psychics or oobe(out of body experience)or mediums(talking to the dead or spirits) or many other man made ''prophets'' that do us of no benefit in the long run.......

The prophecy is indeed prophecy if it comes out 100% and no less..........
So that is why I chose to follow the universal path of the One God..........beliefs are many , but only one can lead to 'truth''.............and i guess we will know one day what that 'true' path is...........
For me, Jesus Christ has revealed the truth.........through the Old Testament to the New Testament...........He has fullfilled all prophecy of the Old.........He was not accepted then, and will not come again to profess His Divinity............
He will send His Prophets to prophesy the end of days..........
Till that day comes ..........
(sorry if i've gone of the subject )

Helen do you know what universal truth means?!?!?

Main Entry: 1uni·ver·sal
Pronunciation: "yü-n&-'v&r-s&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin universalis, from universum universe
Date: 14th century

1 : including or covering all or a whole collectively or distributively without limit or exception

2 a : present or occurring everywhere b : existent or operative everywhere or under all conditions

Main Entry: truth
Pronunciation: 'trüth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural truths /'trü[th]z, 'trüths/
Etymology: Middle English trewthe, from Old English trEowth fidelity; akin to Old English trEowe faithful -- more at TRUE
Date: before 12th century

1 a archaic : FIDELITY, CONSTANCY b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance

2 a (1) : the state of being the case : FACT (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : ACTUALITY (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality

By definition alone you will see that your view of universal truth is not truly universal