Revisit: The conspiracy of extreme theism

Well it's important to understand that some sects of Christianity dont believe in the cruxfiction also.

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."


The Basilidians believed that someone else substituted for Jesus on the cross. It's even written in the Book of St Barnabas that it was not Jesus on the cross, but only Judas. "My God, why have you forsaken me." This is a negative comment towards God. Jesus would never had said this because he was a prophet of God and he loved God. If he would've said this he would've betrayed the one who sent him. In the book of Barnabas, it's Judas on the cross because HE betrayed Jesus and because of that he betrayed God because God sent Jesus.

No one killed Jesus. God raised him up and He promised Jesus that he will return on the final judgment. This fits into everything else. Christians will say well if he didnt die and raised on the third day how did he save mankind from our sins. Easy, he wasnt even supposed to. Only God can reward us with afterlife and grant us salvation. Jesus was a glorious Prophet of God and he loved God and God loved him.

Christ laid down His life as a sacrifice for you, Illuminatti, so that you might not have to pay the wages of sin.

Sure there are people that deny Christ, they deny the immaculate conception, they deny His death and subsequent ressurection, they deny He was the Son of God and now sits at the right hand of Father, too. They are no more part of the Christian religion than you. One cannot be part of the Christian faith and deny Christ.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Christ laid down His life as a sacrifice for you, Illuminatti, so that you might not have to pay the wages of sin.

Wrong. Only God can save you.

Sure there are people that deny Christ, they deny the immaculate conception, they deny His death and subsequent ressurection, they deny He was the Son of God and now sits at the right hand of Father, too. They are no more part of the Christian religion than you. One cannot be part of the Christian faith and deny Christ.

Thomas, someone who actually reads the Bible instead of listening to the priest or the Church would not be a "Christian" according to you. Here's why...

You think the Bible's teachings are;

Jesus was the son of God, and God himself, a part of the Trinity - Father, Son, Holy Ghost/Spirit. He died for everybody's sins, and he is the ONLY way to heaven, nothing else can "save" you.

The BIBLE's actual TEACHINGS are;

Jesus was the "son of Man", one of God's "begotten sons" who performed miracles, healed the blind, raised the dead, as others did in the Bible. He is NOT the only way to heaven. He said once "No one comes to the father except through me" and "I am the father are one" and then about 30 verses where he separates himself from God, and also commanding people to love God with their soul and do good deeds will give them eternal life, no mention of the sacrificial christ necessary for salvation. There is 1 verse ofThe Trinity is not even mentioned in the Bible nor was it ever preached by Jesus. Funny how he forgot to mention something of such extraordinary importance

You are obviously not one of the ones reading the Bible, if that is as good as you understand it.

What part of only do you not understand? There are so many misunderstandings of the Bibler and Christ in your mind I don't know where to begin. First, I'll suggest you stop reading those anti-Christian sites, on top of being incorrect, it'll keep you from learning the truth.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You are obviously not one of the ones reading the Bible, if that is as good as you understand it.

What part of only do you not understand? There are so many misunderstandings of the Bibler and Christ in your mind I don't know where to begin. First, I'll suggest you stop reading those anti-Christian sites, on top of being incorrect, it'll keep you from learning the truth.

thomas crowne im new here but you seem to be very stupid ........... 1st.) god is not the author of confusion, 2nd.) anotherone is right, theres 50+ things in the bibel that contradict everything u believe in, 3rd.) hes right about trinity there is none in the bible 4th.) everything on those ** anti - chirstian ** sites like thereligioustruth.com is posted from the bible ............. 5th.) open your book and read it..... i looked at your postings here all over the board an its clear to most people that youre nothing but some1 whod like to be in the center of everything ; above all ; and in control ........ the truth is that you're nothing but a piece of # who probably doesnt even have a high school diploma

Fuji, yes you are very new in here, but that means nothing.

Yes I seem stupid, and I am. But you are the one who is talking about that what you didn't catch. Either that or your intent is to put words in my mouth.

As best as I can tell. If you'd bother to simply type normally without the code and make it so us stupid people can read your ideas more easily. By using proper grammar skills such as capital letters when necessary and a little usage of punctuation, I might be able to more easily tell whether or not you are a blithering idiot, too.

[Edited on 18-5-2003 by Thomas Crowne]

By the way, I know that Fuji is merely a troll with learning difficulties, but to ensure that he is the only one who misunderstands, the anti- sites are biased and intentionally leave out more information than they put in. I imagine you'd say the same thing about anti-Islamic sites. I don't bother with them because I know better to get info from there, I've heard others say they are hevily biased as well.

Originally posted by fuji
thomas crowne im new here but you seem to be very stupid ........... 1st.) god is not the author of confusion, 2nd.) anotherone is right, theres 50+ things in the bibel that contradict everything u believe in, 3rd.) hes right about trinity there is none in the bible 4th.) everything on those ** anti - chirstian ** sites like thereligioustruth.com is posted from the bible ............. 5th.) open your book and read it..... i looked at your postings here all over the board an its clear to most people that youre nothing but some1 whod like to be in the center of everything ; above all ; and in control ........ the truth is that you're nothing but a piece of # who probably doesnt even have a high school diploma

That's kind of harsh don't you think. Even though I disagree with TC he is a respectable man. He may not listen to reason but that is expected from a person of great faith.

Well thanks for the kind words and coming to my defense, as you pimp-slap me and call me Suzie, Abtsract!

Won't listen to reason. You want religious conversations and say I won't listen to reason?!? Sheesh!!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Well thanks for the kind words and coming to my defense, as you pimp-slap me and call me Suzie, Abtsract!

Won't listen to reason. You want religious conversations and say I won't listen to reason?!? Sheesh!!

you still got that sense of humor

William is right, people at ATS cannot follow a thread. You always get into a Christian vs. Islam debate. Now onto William's original thread - the Conspiracy of Etxreme Theism. (This not only includes extreme fundamentalist Christians and the fundamentalist Moslems.) First a word about Jesus and the crucifixion.

1. All men have sinned. The wages of sin is death (i. e., alienation from God - eventually damnation in Hell).
2. God cannot just forgive sin; He must extract a punishment for sin (the wrath of God). To simply forgive sin would be a violation of God's character. God cannot violate his own character. For example, God cannot lie.
3. The Father sent to Son to earth to live as a man. On the cross, God poured his wrath onto Jesus. In short Jesus took the fall for mankind. He took the heat that was due us. This satisfied God's requirement that sin be punished.
4. This gift (Grace of God), is available to those who simply ask for it. Note that the Grace of God cannot be earned by "good works".
The Apostle Paul made this abundantly clear in his letters (no qoutes - too many). The point is that extreme theists (or fundamentalists) have been around since before the days of Moses. Who did Jesus crack down on the most? Not the prostitutes, not the drunkards, but He always vented His anger on the Pharisees who were the exteme, extreme examples of extreme theism. The Pharisees of Jesus times makes the fundamentalist Christians of today look like a bunch of carousing sluts. No one since them has been as extreme in minute interpretations of "moral living" (or the Law). The point is that a lot of people cannot accept the simple facts outlined above. They feel that they can earn God's acceptance. That by praying enough, by babbling in tongues enough, by tithing enough, etc. that God will say "Why what a good person you are, I just have to accept you such you are such a fine moral person." Basically this is one of the oldest sins around - the idea that a human being can live a life moral enough to earn God's acceptance just based on how moral (or good) they are. They forget that is not the way it works; we cannot earn God's acceptance (salvation), but if we asked for it, He will freely give it to us. In short William, the Judizers have been around for a long time; they always been with us and will be with us until the End. It just that today with mass communications, their presence is more apparent than before.

Oh, bless your heart, Jag, you have done exactly the same thing the rest of us have done, you've tripped off into the Religion thing.

There's a reason for that, too. I agree with everything you've said, by the way. But you felt the need to fine-tune the words of others, or their positions so that they are more IAW the KJV 1611 as you see it. That is what everyone of us that gets dragged into a political argument mean to do.

Welcome to the gutter. It's slippery and slimey and hard to get out of here without getting your clothes dirty.

Christianity was originally a Faith not a Religion. I am of the Christian Faith but do not follow any Religion. The problem is that some poeple want to make the Christian Faith a Christian Religion. Today very few people can distinguish between Faith and Religion.

I consider myself a Christian, in so much that I have been "Saved" and "Baptized". My only problem with Christianity is that I didn't like what they were teaching me, so I stopped going to church when I turned 15 and never went back.

They would tell me that I was sinning by hanging out with my Jewish friend Aaron. They told me not to have a friendship with anyone who was not Christian, and that was reason enough to leave right there.

I think the Christianity that is taught now is somewhat flawed. Christ would never come up to me and say, "You cannot befriend a Jew or a Muslim!" No, I believe he would say, "Walk with them and enjoy their company, they are your brother as much as I am."

Modern Christianity gives me the shakes. I don't like how my next door neighbors, when I was a kid, wouldn't let me play outside with their kids because I wasn't a "True Christian".

I'm not saying Christianity is wrong, after all, any belief (So long as it does not harm another) is admirable...but I just hate having to subscribe to a school of thought that teaches me to limit my friendships to a select few.

Just my two cents.

Interesting, Kai. And if we do not bother with other people, just how are we to have any positive influence in their lives?
I can't say that I've ever heard that teaching, and I can't see how to follow that teaching and do what we are to do.

I remember reading Christ visiting the tax collectors and the like.

Does ANY of the this have anything to do with original topic of the thread? No. Disappointmenting as I thought this one might actually have a chance to survive above the Christians and Mulims on the board screaming "My God can kick you God's butt!!"

BAH.. so much for actual debate.. or even discussion for that matter.

Originally posted by observer
Does ANY of the this have anything to do with original topic of the thread? No. Disappointmenting as I thought this one might actually have a chance to survive above the Christians and Mulims on the board screaming "My God can kick you God's butt!!"

BAH.. so much for actual debate.. or even discussion for that matter.

I agree even though I got caught up in the Bull too. I guess it's hard for someone not to comment to the nonsense that is put on a thread like this

The point is that extremism is on the rise for all sectors. How about extreme non-theism (or atheism). There are those atheists who want the churches, temples, and mosques of the world closed. These peoplw literally fly to the courts to file suit whenever they just happen to hear the word God mention in public (perhaps an exaggeration - but you can catch my drift). How about the extreme environmentalists - those who vehemently oppose any use of certain areas. How about the eco-terrorists? It is not just the Christians or the Muslims, it's seems to be everybody.

Frighteningly astute observation Jag. I concur. It does seem that there are more and more extremists of every stripe.

"There are those atheists who want the churches, temples, and mosques of the world closed. These peoplw literally fly to the courts to file suit whenever they just happen to hear the word God mention in public "

I wouldn't classify myself as EXTREME...but I do want to see "In God We Trust" off money, and "Under God" removed from the pledge (especially since it wasn't in there originally to begin with).