Ok, who can prove magic exists?

All right.

Who can submit, provide, produce, or otherwise procure any physical evidence of the existence of magic? Anyone?

What about psychokinetic powers? Premonition? Telekinesis?

How about results taken from psychic readings, palm readings, astrology, anything of this nature?

This topic, I believe, belongs in the sci/tech forum because I'm asking for the subjecting of these fallacies to the scientific method. Why is there no proof on record that these things exist?



I doubt I will get much response from this thread, as no one can provide the proof, most likely for some wholely inane reasoning.

There is majic in the listening of Tenacious D.

You must seek the treasure.

If someone prays and gets an answer, isn't that magic? Most religious people wouldn't think of it this way, but to me it is the manipulation of energy, or Magic.

[edit on 22-10-2004 by thirddensity]

Originally posted by LadyV
Just as a knife is nuetral, it can help us cut our food or... it can kill someone, it is ones use of the knife which is good or bad.

hypnosis was once considered "occult" also...now it is within illegitimate medical practices.....stick around, there's so much for you to learn!

Have you ever actually used magic to pick up a knive and cut food? Can this be done? I realize it was a metaphor, but what can be done with magic, and why could only the initiated be allowed to observe it?

Hypnosis has proven, verifiable results that have been repeated in a clinical setting. This is why it has been moved to legitimate medical practices. Magic, as yet, has not. This, I believe is because it cannot produce consistent, redundant results under observation.

Why has magic, and other supposed abilities I've listed not been proven by science?

Originally posted by evecasino
There is majic in the listening of Tenacious D.

You must seek the treasure.

LONG LIVE THE D!

Quit your day job!

I am a subscriber and strong believer in candle majic and have used in the past (not anymore) spells created by those who pratice Santeria.

I believe it works but it can also bite you in the a$$ big time so be careful, thats all I'll say.

Originally posted by evecasino
I am a subscriber and strong believer in candle majic and have used in the past (not anymore) spells created by those who pratice Santeria.

I believe it works but it can also bite you in the a$$ big time so be careful, thats all I'll say.

What were the results of the magic that you used to use? Can you reproduce these results? In what ways can it bite you in the @ss if you're not careful?

Do you believe that Jack Black lost his soul to the devil in a game of Blackjack?

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Why has magic, and other supposed abilities I've listed not been proven by science?

Most likely answer- because they don't exist. But that makes the world oh so more boring, so I at least hold out the hope that they exist. Just because it'd be cool

One problem with testing magic is that it isn't like hypnososis in the respect that it doesn't produce one consistent effect. Magic has been claimed to do just about anything and everything, so even if you fail to, say, summon a demon, that has no effect on the zillion other spells out there. Basically, it's something for people to believe in, and I find no problem with it. They may be wrong, but they're also happy.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
What were the results of the magic that you used to use? Can you reproduce these results? In what ways can it bite you in the @ss if you're not careful?

Do you believe that Jack Black lost his soul to the devil in a game of Blackjack?

Results were positive for what my goal was and of course it was againt the 3 law and free will so I paid dearly even though I did receive what I wanted.

I would not want to replicate it as the end result was not as good as the reward.

Yes I do believe JB has a pact.

I don't know if anyone can prove magic.....all it is, is energy being manipulated....if anyone believes in the power of the mind....there is magic. Let me ask you Delta, what do you think magic is? If you are thinking it is that silly Hollywood garbage like "Bewitched, The Craft, I Dream Of Jeanie", no, that is not magic...that is pretend. Could I make misfortune fall upon someone...yes I could, would I? Absolutely not! Can I heal? Yes. Can I turn a situation around to benefit something for the good of all? Yes. All it is, is mind power. We have minds that are disciplined....not smarter...just disciplined. We are adept at meditation and strengthening our inner selves.....much as your Jesus did. All a spell is, is a strong form of prayer...mixed with energy that we have learned to direct....that's all it is, nothing fancy or mystical, nothing elaborate, nothing out of the ordinary...just energy. You and everyone practice magic all the time. Have you ever told a little white lie to get out of work or something, and then a few days later, the very thing that used as an excuse really happened? You put that spoken energy out and it drew that back to you...have every really needed to talk to someone and thought about them, and then....the next day they called you? You directed energy to them, they picked up and it...that's why we are careful in everything we do. I don't sit at a red light, aggravated behind someone and spew mean hateful things to them...heated energy is powerful and yes...that can effect that person. Have you ever known someone that it just seems as if, they are always in a pretty good mood, always up, people seem to like them? They have a strong aura, they are positive and see the best sides of things that happen to them...yes I got a flat tire on the way to work and now I'm late...but it didn't happen on my home from band practice at midnight while I was alone 65 Have you ever known people that were just the opposite? We have all known those people...things always happening to them...they're always saying things like, "Just my luck" I knew this would happen" I can't get a break"....of course they can't...if you put out negative energy that is what encircles you and that is what will be drawn to you. if you put out positive energy, you will draw positive back...it's all about energy ............and the mind!

Originally posted by evecasino
Results were positive for what my goal was and of course it was againt the 3 law and free will so I paid dearly even though I did receive what I wanted.

I would not want to replicate it as the end result was not as good as the reward.

Yes, but what I'm asking is what was the intended result, and what was the actual result, and how can you be positive that this was as a result of your magic.

LadyV, you said

Could I make misfortune fall upon someone...yes I could, would I? Absolutely not! Can I heal? Yes. Can I turn a situation around to benefit something for the good of all? Yes.

I assume that there are other 'witches' or 'wizards' or 'grand poobahs' of magic, and I assume that they can do the same things you are capable of. What DC is asking is, why have none of them been able to do it when someone else was watching?

Originally posted by evecasino
I am a subscriber and strong believer in candle majic and have used in the past (not anymore) spells created by those who pratice Santeria.

I believe it works but it can also bite you in the a$$ big time so be careful, thats all I'll say.

Yes it will, The candles must be dressed appropriately magic must not be used for negative...if you do, it mat be immediately, it mat take a while,,.,but yes, it will turn around and bite you in the azz, because what you put forth, flows back to you, three fold, or in the simpler words, "what goes around, comes around"...it's all energy

Originally posted by Esoterica
why have none of them been able to do it when someone else was watching?

..there have been many people that were granted attendance to join in circle....there have been reporters ect...but it's not something that just anyone can be involved in....all much be of a positive mind...not only can a negative mind, ruin the direction of the energy, but it can be harmful to those there....

Originally posted by LadyV
..there have been many people that were granted attendance to join in circle....there have been reporters ect...but it's not something that just anyone can be involved in....all much be of a positive mind...not only can a negative mind, ruin the direction of the energy, but it can be harmful to those there....

So unless you already believe the spell is going to work, you aren't allowed to actually check if it did work? Am I reading the definition of 'positive' correctly?

Originally posted by Esoterica

So unless you already believe the spell is going to work, you aren't allowed to actually check if it did work? Am I reading the definition of 'positive' correctly?

No...being of a positive and open mind..is different than "believing' Emotion come into play here also

LadyV is 100% correct in my opinion and experience.

I know what I directed came to me as a result of the energy I put out. There is no other explanation for me. Others can believe otherwise.

An example of candle majic would be in that of the birthday candles on a cake. Although the wishes may not always come true it is the purpose it is intended for.

Make a wish.

Careful what you wish for you just might get it.

Originally posted by Esoterica
So unless you already believe the spell is going to work, you aren't allowed to actually check if it did work? Am I reading the definition of 'positive' correctly?

Let me input this.

I was taught to believe that I already had what I wanted and to thank the diety before I even put the spell out there.

Originally posted by LadyV
Let me ask you Delta, what do you think magic is?

I believe magic is manipulating your environment by means other than the physical. What is missing is what is being manipulated in the environment to effect physical change in people and objects, and how.

Could I make misfortune fall upon someone...yes I could, would I? Absolutely not!

If, for the sake of arguement, you were to make misfortune fall upon someone, in what ways could you do this. Provide examples.

Could you consistently achieve the same results with different people?

Can I heal? Yes.

What diseases can you heal? Have you healed anyone? How many? Would these people be willing to attest to this? Is your healing magic less effective, as effective, or more effective than modern medical science?

All a spell is, is a strong form of prayer...mixed with energy that we have learned to direct....that's all it is, nothing fancy or mystical, nothing elaborate, nothing out of the ordinary...just energy.

With this energy, could you say, bend a spoon? No? What can this energy do? Can it do anything that would withstand the scrutiny of the scientific method? Why isn't anyone who is versed and practiced in magic willing to subject their supposed abilities to this scrutiny?

You and everyone practice magic all the time. Have you ever told a little white lie to get out of work or something, and then a few days later, the very thing that used as an excuse really happened? You put that spoken energy out and it drew that back to you...have every really needed to talk to someone and thought about them, and then....the next day they called you? You directed energy to them, they picked up and it...that's why we are careful in everything we do. I don't sit at a red light, aggravated behind someone and spew mean hateful things to them...heated energy is powerful and yes...that can effect that person.

I haven't really noticed the lie coming true, and I haven't thought about someone and they called. Coincidences like this have not happened to me that I remember. But calling this magic is arbitrary. There's no proof to it, it's just noticing something that actually happens in the real world and attributing it to a belief in something that may or may not have anything to do with it It's more of a chosen thought process, really. The 'see what you want to see' principle.

I don't believe that we can control and manipulate energy to effect the world around us, because we would have seen it actually happen by now. It has not been done in the history of the world, as far as the world knows. That's pretty good evidence that it has never happened.

Have you ever known someone that it just seems as if, they are always in a pretty good mood, always up, people seem to like them? They have a strong aura, they are positive and see the best sides of things that happen to them...yes I got a flat tire on the way to work and now I'm late...but it didn't happen on my home from band practice at midnight while I was alone 65 Have you ever known people that were just the opposite? We have all known those people...things always happening to them...they're always saying things like, "Just my luck" I knew this would happen" I can't get a break"....of course they can't...if you put out negative energy that is what encircles you and that is what will be drawn to you. if you put out positive energy, you will draw positive back...it's all about energy ............and the mind!

Yes, there are people with good attitudes, who are social, outgoing, and happy. There are also people with bad attitueds, are socially inept, introverted, and depressed. These have nothing to do with magic. These are personality traits, habits, and conditions.

As far as luck is concerned, good or bad luck does not come to the person, the good or bad luck is created by the person. The only reason people choose to see it as good or bad, or luck at all, for that matter, is because they have a superstition. When you actally examine the events that lead to the outcomes people receive, they can almost always be attributed to the behavior of they themselves, other people, or chance situations.

Such as a flat tire. If you happen to run over a nail and your tire goes flat, there is no luck to be blamed for that, only the nail. Only the nail. You can call it bad luck if you choose, but that's just a label that could apply to any general bad thing that happens. Are all bad things that happen to be attributed to bad luck? If not, then how do we determine which bad things are caused by bad luck, and which are not? Same for good luck.

AS for receiving and emmanating good and bad energy, it's not that. If you have a sparkling personality people are going to react positively to that. Unless someone has a personality that's diametrically opposed. They will most likely not react kindly.

If you have a horribly negative attitude, you will alienate people, bring them down, and possibly upset them. People are not attracted to these things. This also has nothing to do with energy projection and reception. Again, the energy thing is just an arbitrary label, than you can place on any person or situation, if you are inclined to think in those terms.

More likely the interactions between personalities can be attributed to differing psychology and human social behaviour. Not an unseen energy that we're all manipulating.

Occam's Razor in effect.

Originally posted by evecasino
I know what I directed came to me as a result of the energy I put out. There is no other explanation for me. Others can believe otherwise.

But what happened? What were the results in the physical world?

An example of candle majic would be in that of the birthday candles on a cake. Although the wishes may not always come true it is the purpose it is intended for.

Do you really think that blowing out candles and making a wish can actually make the wish come true? What about wishing on a star? What about throwing a penny in the well? Do these have the same effect?

Make a wish.

Careful what you wish for you just might get it.

Are you threatening me? My name is not cornholio!