100's of Muslims protest Muhammad cartoons in London…But how many protest terror?

Originally posted by skippytjc
Why are Muslims more offended by cartoons that are
forbidden by their faith, than Muslims killing non believers?

Part of their supposed problem with the cartoons is that
Muhammed isn't supposed to be depicted in pictures or anything.

This is bogus.

The TV news this morning interviewed a Muslim author who said
that only certain groups of muslims have this belief. There are
PLENTY of depictions of Muhammed throughout Muslim history and
many of them are in museums all throughout the Middle East
and the rest of the world.

I can't remember which way this goes ... it's either the Shias
who approve and the Sunnis who disapprove of pictures of
Muhammad ... or it's the other way around that the Shias
disapprove and the Sunnis approve.

AND to answer your question - Why are Muslims more offended by
cartoons that are forbidden by their faith, than Muslims killing
non believers?

The answer is - it's called being uncivilized. It's that simple.
When a political cartoon can become an excuse for riots, looting,
and calls for genocide of continents ... that's just uncivilized.

I think the Imams and the other Muslim leaders are pushing for
a 'holy war'. The policially correct thing to do is claim that the
west is waging a 'religious war' against Muslims. But the
exact opposite is true.

skippytjc,

Have you read none of my posts? Why are you perpetuating the same thoughts again, after all that has been said?

#1 Islam is governed by honor, not logic or the rule of right or wrong

- Probably true (except the logic part), in fact I'd go so far as to say that this is the prime factor here, i.e, the rules of morality are different.


#2 Non Muslims are not equal to Muslims. They are a lesser being and it is not a sin to kill them

- The first part of the sentence is true. But only in the sense that our beliefs and morality system is different. The second part is the same ignorance perpetuated again and again by hardliners from both sides. I don't want to go dredging up verses from the Qur'an yet again. Don't ask me to. Just read the posts I've made in this thread.

#3 Islam does not permit criticism. Muslims protesting the killing of disbelievers by other Muslims is a form of Islamic criticism, and that’s not permitted.

-Wrong again. Where did you get that idea? It is the hardliners who do not permit criticsm, hardliners and extremists who are left to reign free in countries where there are prevalent and not clamped down on by the people in charge (or they are the people in charge)


DENY IGNORANCE!

Originally posted by Beachcoma
#3 Islam does not permit criticism. Muslims protesting the killing of disbelievers by other Muslims is a form of Islamic criticism, and that’s not permitted.

-Wrong again. Where did you get that idea? It is the hardliners who do not permit criticsm, hardliners and extremists who are left to reign free in countries where there are prevalent and not clamped down on by the people in charge (or they are the people in charge)


DENY IGNORANCE!

"...It is the hardliners who do not permit criticism..."

Excuse me? So, the only Muslims rioting in the streets across the entire planet right now are hardliners? The 10's of thousands are 100% hardliners? After all, these cartoons are just criticism of Islam when it comes down to it, nothing more.

Beach, you represent ONE Muslim and just one opinion of your faith. Maybe you shouldn’t be wasting time on these boards trying to convince non Muslims about the proper way view Islam; maybe you should be out protesting your peer’s representation your faith. It’s some Muslims twisted view of your faith that is the problem, not people of other faiths view of your faith.

And that’s the problem Beach that I am speaking of: Muslims do not allow non Muslims to criticize Islam, and they allow Muslims to represent it any way they want, even if that means murder and terrorism.

One last thought Beach: The west can only defend themselves against Islamic extremists, but only Islamic moderates can stop them without violence. And until Islam looks at itself and accepts its flaws and concedes it will need to share the world with other faiths, this will never happen. I am an American atheist, and my opinion of your religion should not matter to you. But enough Muslims care enough about my perception of their faith they are willing to kill me over it. And that’s a problem.

While i would appreciate the presentations of Beach and applaud her efforts, i must say i support skippy's view as it is a reality no matter where one goes. And that is one of the reasons why extremists can easily get away from being apprehended. All they need to do is scream being bullied for being a muslim and everyone starts to get offended, even the kind hearted non-muslims.

Skippy;

Great post and it's nice to know someone else "gets it". I've had conversations with other Muslims here and it's always the same: They try to change how I perceive Islam. I keep telling them that it is not I whose perception you must change but, rather, the perceotions of the "extremists". I simply only report here what I see going on. It is not I who is blowing myself up in a crowd of innocents or decapitating my kidnapped victims heads. It is fundamentalist Islamists whor are doing these things and justifying their actions with the Qur'an and Hadith.

Originally posted by skippytjc
The west can only defend themselves against Islamic extremists, but only Islamic moderates can stop them without violence. And until Islam looks at itself and accepts its flaws and concedes it will need to share the world with other faiths, this will never happen. I am an American atheist, and my opinion of your religion should not matter to you. But enough Muslims care enough about my perception of their faith they are willing to kill me over it. And that’s a problem.

BINGO! I 100% absolutely agree with you Skippy (for a change ) Way above for that piece of insight.

When the Ontarian Islamic Radicals wanted to bring Sharia law into Ontario do you know who was the loudest opposition? The Mainstream Muslim groups and the Muslim Womens Rights groups. The main reason most of them came to my country was to escape that nonsense in the first place. It worked and we no longer have the prospect of Sharia Tribunal so the tactic works.

People keep pointing out all the Muslim groups condemning these acts of Violence and Barbarism yet they are the same groups that condemn such things as Sharia law and they are mostly western based orginisations. The ONLY Arab country to try to douse these flames are the Jordanians thus far. That's it.

We want to see the Moderates in the MIDDLE-EAST condemn these acts and get their fricken act together.

Way above on the way, Skippy. You've boiled it down to the essential issues. Only the moderates can stop the fanatics peacefully, or have even a remote chance of doing so. Well said.

The moderates in Islam have to realize that they can not change the perceptions of Islam in the west by words alone. Their actions in trying to stem this rampant escalation of fundementalist extremism in Islam will go much further then mere words ever could. I guess I am saying that while the words are good, no mistake, actions will go much, much further.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by seagull]

skippy,

Hardliners have their supporters to, no? The thousands of rioters you see are their supporters. The millions you do not see are the moderates. Where are they? In other countries where they don't condone such violence or in their homes where such violence are happening, fearful of reprisals from the hardliners and their supporters. This is what I am trying to make people see.

It's true, we moderates should do more to stop the continued degradation of world-view towards our religion, but it's hard to do that when you are in another country, or if your country is run by hardliners and their supporters that would also threaten to kill you at a drop of dime and call you unIslamic for your criticisms. Do you see why it's easier said than done?


SeekerofTruth101,

It is not the reality wherever one goes. I invite you to visit my country, this peaceful muslim country where everyone has the right to practise their religion. But don't visit now, there's not much going on at the moment. Try around the end of August when we have our Independence Day celebrations, or better yet, come around November-December, when we have our joint muslim Eid and Indian Diwali celebrations within days of each other.

That's right, we celebrate each others festivals and we visit each others homes during the festivals. We celebrate our diversity. And we are a muslim majority country.

And what of criticisms? No problem, criticize all you want, but be sensitive on the subject, don't go around inciting hatred. And our country applies this rule to all religions and cultures practiced in this country.

Beach, what are you doing?

Stop trying to convince me of anything. Go down to your mosque right now and start trying to convert any extremist Muslims you find there into moderate Muslims. Make up some signs that say “I am a Muslim, and I don’t condone killing non-Muslims for any reason!”, and go march in the streets.

Beach, I have passion for my beliefs, I have had my current belief now for maybe 25 years. And I have yet to try to convince one Muslim to convert to my belief, and you know what? I have actually been able to control myself and I have not killed one single Muslim because they disagreed with my belief!! Imagine my self control!! Not only have I resisted the urge to kill others who do not share my belief, I couldn’t care less what they think of it. Try that on for size.

If a Muslim extremist attempted to impose Islamic law (murder, terrorism) on me, I would have no option but to defend myself with force, up to and including killing them if necessary. The only peaceful method to stop Muslim extremism lies in the hands of the Muslims themselves. And every moment you, a Muslim as you say, spend trying to convince me, a non Muslim, of your religions true intent is wasted as I am not the problem.

No Muslims will ever have to change their way because of my belief, and I will kill any Muslim that forcefully tries to make me change mine.

I fully expect you to back up your claims to be a peacefull moderate Muslim and go march in protest of Islamic Extremism Beach. We are waiting...

Originally posted by Beachcoma
skippy,

Hardliners have their supporters to, no? The thousands of rioters you see are their supporters. The millions you do not see are the moderates.

Beachcoma;

You say the number of "extremists" can be measured in thousands and moderates in the millions, yet, the moderates are afraid for their lives to stand up for their religion? Something doesn't sit well with me about this

In any case; I tried to find examples of extremism in your neck of the woods, Malaysia, and was surprised to have found none; thus far. But bear in mind, that this "fundamentalist" form of Islam is the fastest growing religion right now with SE Asia leading the way in this growth. The Phillipines, Thailand, Indonesia etc, are relatively right around the corner from you. If "moderates" do not stand up for their beliefs now, fundamentalsts, who consider moderates as apostates, will force this "extreme" form of Islam; starting in rural areas and slowly will spread to larger population centers.

French weekly reprints cartoons, angers Muslims

Reuters

PARIS (Reuters) - A French satirical weekly reprinted cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad on Wednesday and published one of its own on its front page, further angering Muslim groups which say the caricatures are blasphemous.

French Muslim organizations tried to prevent Charlie Hebdo reprinting the 12 cartoons, which were first published by the Danish paper Jyllands-Posten, but a court rejected their suit on Tuesday on a technicality.

VIVA LE FREEDOM!

France has grown a set in the last few months havent they? First a tough stance on Iran now this? I approve!

skippy,

I am not trying to convert you or reveal to you Islam's true intentions. I am simply trying to make you and everyone else see that these issues have little to do with Islam itself and more to do with the socio-economic climate in the middle-eastern nations or other "problem" muslim nations.

As sardion2000 have stated, the muslim moderates in his country immigrated there to escape the nonsense going on back home. That's the issue. The powers in control there simply will not allow for moderate believes to undermine their stranglehold on power.

I am not trying to change your beliefs. I respect that you have strong beliefs, that you have your own thoughts. I have little respect for sheep. I wouldn't be arguing with you on this if I thought you are one of those sheeple. All I'm doing right now is to point out to you that moderates in the problem countries have little oppurtunity to affect real change.

If i were to go out and start picketing as you suggested, it wouldn't affect change in those countries. If I were to picket in those countries I would probably be attacked as they would think me a western sympathizer or worst, unislamic.

That is all I'm doing. Personally I don't agree with going out trying to convert people. I say let them come to it themselves, when they see your good conduct, your tolerance and your humility. That, in my opinion is a better way than outright conversion.

beachcoma,

Great post. Islam has been at the losing end for a long time now. A lot of the times, its the weak that will fight the hardest and shout the loudest, because that's the only way for them to get things done.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Would you agree that there is actually a hopeful sign here?

I mean, if the Muslim community leaders still have sufficient power and respect to be able to 'make' people like Khayam stand up and publicly apologise to the country on TV then surely that is not worthless?

Khayam himself is a hot-headed idiot, frankly I could care less about him personally (and he will still face the consequences for what he has done and what he did) but what he was made to publicly do was of far more value IMO.

It was worthless coming from him. The leaders in islamic communities are the only people who can quell the anger coming from the muslim side. Being older and wiser and being respected by the younger members of the community, the elders help in these kind of situations is immensely valuable.

I just hope that they had been with him as they read it out, or had been by his side giving a statement condemning his actions but forgiving him.

The fact that I know he didn't mean a word he said makes it worthless. The fact that muslim leaders are trying to show the rest of the community that not all muslims are hot headed and quick to judge shows great promise.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
beachcoma,

Great post. Islam has been at the losing end for a long time now. A lot of the times, its the weak that will fight the hardest and shout the loudest, because that's the only way for them to get things done.

Weak? Its the largest religion in the world, some of the worlds richest nations are dominated by Islam. The world depends on these nations as they control the worlds most sought after resource. Your opinion on the status of Islam is way off.

Islams problem is not how it is perceived in the world, Islams problem is how is wants to be percieved in the world and what some Muslims do to alter that perception (violence/terrorism)

Moderate Muslims arent the problem directly, its the extremists. But indirectly moderate Muslims are the problem. Yes I said that and I mean every bit of it. It means that ONLY moderste Muslims can control extreme Muslims. No Muslim was born an extremist, they are influenced by other Muslims.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
I am simply trying to make you and everyone else see that these issues have little to do with Islam itself and more to do with the socio-economic climate in the middle-eastern nations or other "problem" muslim nations.

Beachcoma;

This is one of the biggest falacies regarding modern Islamic terrorism. Usama bin Laden came from one of the wealthiest families in SA. None of the 911 hijackers were "impoverished" and part of the reason Islamists are able to carry out their attacks is because they have the resources to do so. It is religious ferver that drives their need to convert or destroy all things that are unIslamic.

Please don't perpetuate the socio-economic myth.

Freedom,

Yeah, we're pretty lucky extremism didn't gain momentum in this country, and the handfull of known extremist went to neighbouring Indonesia instead to spread their hatefull ideas. What was that fella's name again? He was the mastermind for the Bali bombings.

The closest we got to extremists taking control was in '98 general elections in which the Islamic Party gained two northern states, near the Muslim dominant southern Thailand border. But they lost those states in the next election for their petty policies that did little to improve the economic conditions there. Thank God for that.

You're right though, about the fundamentalist form of Islam. I don't know much about Thailand or Phillipines, but I suspect the reasons for their gaining a foothold there are similiar to why it happened to Indonesia, which I have explained in this post.

As for your point about bin Laden, he and other extremist leaders may have the finances, but what about their followers? Most of them are either from poor families or poor educational backgrounds. And those who aren't are probably driven by vengeance, masquerading as religious fervor.

sweatmonicaIdo,

Thank you. I'm glad someone else sees the complexities of the issue, that it's deeper than it appears.

Edit: to add notes on extremist leaders and their followers.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by Beachcoma]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

Originally posted by Beachcoma
I am simply trying to make you and everyone else see that these issues have little to do with Islam itself and more to do with the socio-economic climate in the middle-eastern nations or other "problem" muslim nations.

Beachcoma;

This is one of the biggest falacies regarding modern Islamic terrorism. Usama bin Laden came from one of the wealthiest families in SA. None of the 911 hijackers were "impoverished" and part of the reason Islamists are able to carry out their attacks is because they have the resources to do so. It is religious ferver that drives their need to convert or destroy all things that are unIslamic.

Please don't perpetuate the socio-economic myth.

Maybe the leaders. I highly doubt that's the rule. Look at africa for instance. What drives child soldiers to pick up arms? 3 square meals a day and a dry bed to sleep in(at least that is the promise. I personally believe that the same is true for the rank and file Jihadists.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by marg6043
Welcome to the world of marg6043, are you ready for me.

lol I've been ready.. . Always wanted to be a part of your world!

Are you glad that it was not American magazine doing this?

[edit on 7-2-2006 by marg6043]

Personally I don't care. I've seen a lot of things done in poor taste and how people react to them. Those that understand they arent the only ones in the world seem to handle these things better than those that think they are alpha and omega.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Now there are riots. So what? It doesn't change the fact that
it's still a cartoon and it doesn't change the fact that the rioters
should NOT be appeased by backing off from the cartoon.
That would be the WORST thing the west could do. The
idiots would be causing world wide riots and calls for genocide
every time they wanted something their own way or when
something didn't match up to THEIR religion. To appease
them now would just invite more trouble later and would
TRAIN THEM to continue these in these idiotic and
criminally deviant behaviors.

Right on the money, Flyer. I rarely agree with you, but I guess enough senseless stupidity has happened to get a few people united here.

We may all disagree about the war in Iraq and some of the Western policies in the Middle East, or whether Hamas can be a lgeitimate political and governing body. But this...

The rioters effectively are demanding the Western countries to change THEIR consitution, and if not, threaten all sort of nasty things (and people have indeed already died in these riots). I say the line is drawn in the sand. We should publish more cartoons, especially that I liked the first ones. We are a secular society and should stay these way. If somebody didn't like the cartoons, nobody forced them to read the damn paper in the first place. Boo hoo.


[edit on 8-2-2006 by Aelita]