A question for the masons

I often read on here about how masons are just nice people united by there wish to help others who are less fortunate than themselves through charity work etc and how all lodges are the same and none of them are ever used for anything more sinister. This is usually said, unsurprisingly, by masons.

Anyway I was just wondering what you people think/thought of Kenneth Noye?



The Government called him Britain's Biggest Crime Boss - 'Worse than the Kray Brothers'
The United Grand Lodge of England called him 'Worshipful Master'...

Criminal record stretching back to 1966

CRO Number 97102/66

Date Offence Court Sentence/result

Dec 66 Attempted burglary Old St Mags Ct conditional discharge

June 67 Receiving stolen cars and property SE London Quarter Sessions 1 yr Borstal training

May 75 Assault on police and theft of sunglasses Marlborough St Mags Ct fined £125 and £25 costs

Feb 77 Handling stolen goods, possessing documents with intent to deceive and unlawful possession of shotgun Croydon Crown Court five prison sentences all suspended. Fined £2250, £3500 compensation and £1000 costs.

Mar 79 Stealing electricity Malling Mags Ct fined £250

Oct 81 Smuggling a Magnum handgun Canterbury Crown Court Suspended 18 mths prison sentence and £2500 fine.

April 83 Police search Noye's home for missing lorry which had been loaded with shoes nothing found.

Dec 85 Murder of PC John Fordham Old Bailey acquitted

Aug 86 Handling of gold from Brinks Mat robbery Old Bailey jailed for 14 years (released 1994).

99 International Fugitive Spain Extradited

Apr 00 Murder of Stephen Cameron Old Bailey Sentenced to life in prison.

If you look at these links you'll find loads of infomation on him.

Kenneth Noye

Kenneth Noye mason

So what's really going on with you masons then? Are you just a group of people out to do charity work for the local community or something far more sinister?

I think I already know the answer to my question but I'm interested to see what you have to say about it.

[edit on 3-4-2005 by legion]

I took out what I copied and pasted, I hope this pleases you mods.

As if any group involved in nefarious activities would answer your question honestly. Did you expect that if the masons are pursuing some sinister agenda, they would tell you?
So, your question has little value, and is unlikely to evoke any answer other than " We are good people who do a lot of good work."
Which I believe to be the case anyways.
As for this fellow whose biography you posted, I would never condemn any group for the actions of one member. There are a hundred good masons for every one of him.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
As if any group involved in nefarious activities would answer your question honestly. Did you expect that if the masons are pursuing some sinister agenda, they would tell you?
So, your question has little value, and is unlikely to evoke any answer other than " We are good people who do a lot of good work."
Which I believe to be the case anyways.

TBH I never expected an honest answer, the reason I ask is because whenever I read these forums I'm led to believe that the masons are like the boy scouts. I know this isnt true, at least not over hear anyway, they are nothing more than gangsters.

Some people on here seem to think it's impossible for the masons to be used for anything other than good purposes, I just thought I'd show them that it isnt.

As for this fellow whose biography you posted, I would never condemn any group for the actions of one member. There are a hundred good masons for every one of him.

Maybe not but he was their leader and its obvious that he used his position in the masons to further his criminal career, many people believe if it wasnt for him being a mason he wouldnt have got away with half of what he did.

[edit on 3-4-2005 by legion]

Originally posted by legion
I know this isnt true, at least not over hear anyway, they are nothing more than gangsters.

As for this fellow whose biography you posted, I would never condemn any group for the actions of one member. There are a hundred good masons for every one of him.

Maybe not but he was their leader and its obvious that he used his position in the masons to further his criminal career, many people believe if it wasnt for him being a mason he wouldnt have got away with half of what he did.

[edit on 3-4-2005 by legion]

I cannot dispute that he was a master in the Lodge you mention. He was not 'their' master, just master of one group. I also cannot say for certain that his connections did not help his legal battles. This is nothing extraordinary. I see cases like the OJ trial, and conclude that people with connections, and wealth, seem to do far better in court than the average person, whether mason or not.
I am not a mason, but come from a long line of masons on my dad's side, so I find your allegation of gangsterism objectionable. My forebears were no gangsters. Neither were Ben Franklin or George Washington, imho.

As yet, I have not figured out how to insert a Quote block, I would like to attemp to answer you question though.

Masonry, like all group is made up of individuals. Masonry has attempted to only admit "men of good report", but no mason will ever say that there have been no "bad apples". Every Grand Lodge that, I am awair of, mandates that any fellon be expeled for masonry.

As for the masonic connection being an advantage in court. In the US, a man is considered inocent until proven guilty. If I were on the jury and became convince of the mans guilt, rather than go easy on him, I would probably go harder on him as I would hold him to a higher standard than the non-mason. From the few cases I'm awair of where this has been the situation, that has been the result. (so I'm not alone in my presonal reation). Not only was the mason expeled form masonry he inded up getting a harsher sentance than offen given out. So from what I've seen masonic ties may work to the detroment of a criminal when they get to court.

Granted we sware to aid and assist a "worthy" brother mason. But the key word is WORTHY, in other words one who is doing what is "right", not just is masonic terms but in the eyes of society and the law. As all citizens we have a responciblity to uphold the law at all times.

OMG the biggest crime boss in Britain a grandmaster of a lodge!

Also, how about that phsycho serial killer in the USA that was the grandmaster of one of the lodges - forgot his name.

[edit on 9-4-2005 by Driver]

Ohh and how about Prince Philip being the head of the Scottish Rite... this guy is a Nazi, a Satanist and a gangster.

Though I do not disagree most Masons do good stuff and charity work.

[edit on 9-4-2005 by Driver]

The last I hurd Prince Philip is the titular head, not the functional.

As for any conection with the Natzi, well I seriousl doubt that his wife would have married him if there was any truth to that one. Considering what she went through during WW II. From what we hear in the states, she is in charge of the family.

Originally posted by Masonic Student
The last I hurd Prince Philip is the titular head, not the functional.

As for any conection with the Natzi, well I seriousl doubt that his wife would have married him if there was any truth to that one. Considering what she went through during WW II. From what we hear in the states, she is in charge of the family.

He is a Nazi along with the ther Windsor's.

The Duke of Kent is actually the "Head Mason" in the Royal familly.
His Dad was quite closely tied to the Nazis, I'm not sure that Prince Phillip is in any way afilliated (at least publically) with the Masons, I think he is often mistaken for the Duke by people who are not all that clued up on the Royal family.

There are a lot of indirect ties between the Windsors and the Nazis due to their German heritage, but the same could be argued about anyone with German heritage due to the fact that all bar a small percentage "joined the programme" during the Hitler years so to speak.

Yes, Kenneth Noye was a freemason. At least he was until his conviction, at which point he was expelled. No-one ever said all freemasons are perfect, but when we find a bad 'un, we kick 'em out.

As MrNECROS said, the Grand Master is the Duke of Kent, not Prince Philip. As to Nazi links within the Royal family I really wouldn't know.

Granted we sware to aid and assist a "worthy" brother mason.

Not in Britain we don't. In fact we are specifically told in the ritual to put God first, then the law of the land, then our family, and finally other masons and non-masons.

"As a citizen of the world, I am to enjoin you to be exemplary in the discharge of your civil duties, by never proposing or at all countenancing any act that may have a tendency to subvert the peace and good order of society, by paying due obedience to the laws of any State which may for a time become the place of your residence or afford you its protection..." Charge to the Initiate, Emulation Ritual.

Kenneth Noye thought he could put himself first, and that is why is is no longer worthy to be a freemason.

Listen, BAD APPLES are not always expelled from Freemasonry. I went out of my way to show there are exceptions, especially if you are a Billionaire!

That was the case with Ilia Pavlov, Bulgarian Billionaire (not a cent was earned, he had connections with the former Prime Minister and head of Secret Service, through marriage (SS) and Masonry.

And why is the Crime Lord still honored by Masons, because he was never convicted of a felony. Hmm, most Crime Bosses aren't, you know. Especially well-connected ones.

What happens is, they don't go to court for their crimes, they get killed. And Ilia Pavlov, 33 degree Worshipful Master was no exception, as he was gunned down after his first day of court testimony (hmmm, kinda means what he said that day HAS to be taken as the truth, even if it was just the lies he was paid to say, not knowing he would be killed).

If Masonry (and this shows that someone wants men of lesser character in Masonry) actually only cared about a Man's character, then they wouldn't have an excess of immoral rich white men in the Order, who only care about making money for themselves and EACH OTHER, which somehow counts as Brotherly Love? Please.

Originally posted by Driver

Originally posted by Masonic Student
The last I hurd Prince Philip is the titular head, not the functional.

As for any conection with the Natzi, well I seriousl doubt that his wife would have married him if there was any truth to that one. Considering what she went through during WW II. From what we hear in the states, she is in charge of the family.

He is a Nazi along with the ther Windsor's.

Well, there you have it folks. Open-mindedness at it's absolute best. Can't pull the wool over ol' Driver's eyes. He's got it going on.

Ignorance is truly bliss for these happy folks.

Gotta run....a nice cold, frosty beverage awaits me at yon tavern. . . and maybe a fine stogie to go with it, where I can reflect upon the fascinating posts of Driver, Akilles, MNecros, Soul-jah and their ilk.

On second thought I'd be better off and learn more if I went somewhere and watched paint dry.

Listen, proven bad apples are always expelled from freemasonry, at least they are down my way. Now what are you rattling on about with this Bulgarian bloke? More nonsensical tidbits to keep the casual observer believing that there must be something wrong with freemasonry because, well, because akilles says there is.

Now please tell me about this fellow. And do me the favour of not just linking to an article on conspiracytheories-r-us.com or repeatedliesadnauseam.co.uk. Put up or shut up.

And masonry is just full of immoral rich white men who only care about making money for themselves and EACH OTHER? Please.

Which crime lords are honoured by masonry? You're talking twaddle again aren't you.

I KNOW you don't have any evidence of any of this. What I don't know is why you are trying to prove that an organisation which defines itself as a System of Morality is actually a system of immorality.

Originally posted by akilles
Listen, BAD APPLES are not always expelled from Freemasonry. I went out of my way to show there are exceptions, especially if you are a Billionaire!

Akilles, you did no such thing. You mentioned "what about ilia pavlov?" and thats it. After repeated requests for you to provide details and evidence for your claims against him, you still have not.

If Masonry (and this shows that someone wants men of lesser character in Masonry) actually only cared about a Man's character, then they wouldn't have an excess of immoral rich white men in the Order, who only care about making money for themselves and EACH OTHER, which somehow counts as Brotherly Love? Please.

OH YOURE SOOO RIGHT!!! It's just SEETHING with immoral rich white men! Good God, the whole fraternity is made up of them! Might as well just assume that masonry is immoral and a bunch of gangsters. Why are we even in the fraternity, when it's just a bunch of crime bosses all over the place!?!?!

Do you realize how stupid you sound!?!? How dare you generalize all of masonry for the actions of a few? You are not looking at the majority, you're looking at the exception and saying that all of masonry is like that because of the actions of a few. The truth is that the only reason you do this is because you have an agenda that youre trying to push, and the majority of masons don't make good examples for your claims.

Listen to yourselves, THEN tell me how I sound. Thanks.

“And masonry is just full of immoral rich white men” (Didn't say full at any point)

"Which crime lords are honoured by masonry " (one too many)

"It's just SEETHING with immoral rich white men! Good God, the whole fraternity is made up of them! " (didn't say anything about the Whole)

"How dare you generalize all of masonry for the actions of a few? " (didn't generalize)

"prove that an organisation which defines itself (one way) is actually how YOU define it?" (wasn't commenting on anything but a consistent expulsion policy, that involved kicking people out for immorality, not just following legal punishment)

I didn't even SUGGEST any of those things. I said there was an excess, meaning only MORE THAN THERE SHOULD BE. I did not generalize, I did not say anything about Masonry as a whole being bad, all I said was I would like to see more transparency involved in investigating members, and kicking them out.

I don't think it should be handled similar to how the Church handles scandal, ie. internally only!

What is keeping you guys from searching for the name of Ilia (Iliya) Pavlov? What makes you think I have a singular source and agenda? Oh, you guys made your mind up about non-Masons, thats why.

Now address what was actually said.

There are a lot of lodges near my place of business. One of them is a Masonic lodge. With all of these lodges and with all of them trying to better mankind, you would think there would be a little more press on their accomplishments in the community.

Before we come to any deep conclusions I thought it might be a good idea to discover if anyone could name a recent community project by the Masons.

Famous Wayne

Originally posted by Famous Wayne
There are a lot of lodges near my place of business. One of them is a Masonic lodge. With all of these lodges and with all of them trying to better mankind, you would think there would be a little more press on their accomplishments in the community.

Before we come to any deep conclusions I thought it might be a good idea to discover if anyone could name a recent community project by the Masons.

Famous Wayne

We generally don't call the newspaper and say "Hey! Look at the good things WE did....pat us on the back, please" Here is a link to a FEW (just a FEW) Masonic charities. There are TONS of local things that are never discussed. That's not what we're all about.

www.masonicinfo.com...

By the way, what are you "Famous" for?

Oh, and Akilles, note that first line on the web-site.....the one that says "Although Masonic ritual varies between jurisdictions..."

It seems I'm not the ONLY one who knows this. Too bad you don't "believe" it...not that it matters to anyone.


[edit on 9-4-2005 by senrak]

Harry S Truman
George Washington
Ben Franklin
Winston Churchill
Chief Tecumseh
Jean Francois Champollion
Sir Sanford Fleming
Norman Vincent Peale
Oscar Peterson
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Ludwig von Beethoven
Burl Ives
Irving Berlin
Horatio Nelson
P. G. Wodehouse
Oscar Wilde
Voltaire
Rudyard Kipling
Alexander Pope
Jonathan Swift
Robert W. Service
Alexander Pushkin
Walter Scott
Johann W. Goethe
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Samuel Clemens
Robert Burns
Sir Richard Burton
Sir Ernest Shackleton
Will Rogers
Peter Sellers
Red Skelton
Danny Thomas
Tom Mix
Audie Murphy
Harpo Marx
Harold C. Lloyd
Harry Houdini

Is that famous psycho serial killer that was also a Grandmaster of a Masonic Lodge in the USA in that list?

[edit on 9-4-2005 by Driver]