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A question for the masons

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posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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Closed-mindedness is realllly rife 'round here!
HELL....look at the entire human race - there are plenty of bad apples. Even better....look at the Churches! Thousands of BAD apples! Every group/society has bad apples. Every class/workplace/community has bad apples! Driver.....how ignorant is it to condemn one group as a whole for some of their "bad apples"? Or are you unable to think rationally/objectively? The latter is probably more the case imo.

Masons are only human, just like Bush/Blair/BinLaden/Late Pope/blah blah.
At least their out there helping those who need it as best they can. What have each of us done today to help our community (not OURSELVES)?

Think about it. People might then stop and realise that even IF there are bad apples. Any bad apples are far outshone by the good the Masons do in their own way. My Father became a Mason not long before he died. The entire Mason Brotherhood have done endless things to support us, his family, since then (20 years ago). The help, never ends. Thats more than I can say for many many other organisations. Good OR bad.

Cheers




posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 10:24 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
Wow, 3 quick responses to ignorance. I think Jesus said it best Driver:






LMFAO Intrepid!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

And driver, I know this is going to be hard for you to understand, but linking ALL your back up to www.freemasonrywatch.org is the epitome of ridiculousness. I am not impressed (big surprise).


[edit on 4/12/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Apr, 12 2005 @ 10:45 PM
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and just to preclude any TOS problems ( read excuses) I will be more than
happy to upload any material to my server for perusal.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 01:20 AM
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Nice post sanse_nz - I'm glad to read that your local freemasons are supporting you and your family. Just one more example of the organisation that just keeps on Giving


I wonder how long it will before the Troll Tag Team accuse you of being paid to support the masons, or of making it all up. Or put under pressure by the Free New World Illuminatibergers.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk I am a 3rd degree mason, and THAT is the highest rank any mason can get. Any other degree is an APPENDANT DEGREE, and is in addition to being a 3rd degree Master Mason.


First of all you say that the 3rd degree is the highest you can get, but here is Senrak claiming to be a 32nd degree??? GO FIGURE< 3rd degree the highest, and senrak 32nd degree??? hmmmm, blinders are on dude.

[edited large general quotation - nygdan]


[edit on 13-4-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 05:58 AM
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Here is some info on your occultish masonary fraternity, whatever u wish to call yourselves...

The Secret History of America
In 1797, a book appeared in Europe by John Robison called "Proofs of A Conspiracy against all of the Religions and Governments of Europe, Carried on in the Secret Meetings of Freemasons, Illuminati and Reading Societies". Then in 1799, written in another country and in another language, Abbe Augustine Barruel published his four-volume study entitled "Memoirs
Illustrating the History of Jacobinism".

Blessed Be

[edited to shorten quote and add citation - nygdan]


[edit on 13-4-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 06:25 AM
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Geez, You "Freemasons" ARE blind, where in the bible does it say that that all seeing eye is a part of God?
Half of you guys have great looking pics, as your own mottos? or whatever they be. But, where in Jesus' name does your capstone come from?
I would think that the capstone was of Egyptian descent! TRUE???
Where on earth does Jesus ever mention anything regarding the torch of enlightenment?
The symbology surrounding this faith of yours is not at all anything related to Jesus, but you guys call him our great Emmanuel.

wow, if anyone here is so blind it is you guys.
Here is another Freemason with a sign of a serpent with its tail in its mouth, circling a pyramid, with a symbol of the sun, and another capstone on it??? That doesn't appear to be a Jesus sign either.
Now whos laughing??????
Intrepid, Where and when did Jesus ever say " YOU GOT SERVED"??? maybe you have a different version of the bible than the version I have read.
Also in reference to 'Mirthful Me' A favourite freemason of yours is Mr Wendy's, and Col Kentucky fried duck??? wow, these guys are part of the reason why so many of our kids today are soooo fat. I suppose Ronald MacD is a freemason as well, and his dressing up as a clown is what you guys are all about. WHO KNOWS?
WHO CARES?
Freemasonary is a tad bit criminal if you ask me.
Did you know also that the guy that started the Watchtower Movement was also a 33rd degree freemason, Wicked huh, and that there is a capstone in the watchtower in his magazines????
HMMMMMMMM and you's have the nuts to laugh at us 'ilks'?
well, heres some of your laughter back at you...
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ahhhhh. I feel better already. they do say that laughter is the best medicine.
Next time I come on maybe there will be some more researched info from you guys. and not just the ignoramus crap that us ilks have to deal with.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 06:31 AM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
Nice post sanse_nz - I'm glad to read that your local freemasons are supporting you and your family. Just one more example of the organisation that just keeps on Giving


I wonder how long it will before the Troll Tag Team accuse you of being paid to support the masons, or of making it all up. Or put under pressure by the Free New World Illuminatibergers.


"There are non so blind as those who will not see"
Trinityman, I love your signature.
maybe you should see that for the true sense of what it means... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha have you got your blinders on today???



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by Famous Wayne
it appears that the Masons want to be a silent partner in the community. We should all be able to appreciate programs like CHIP, that help to protect our children.

I wonder why they need the mystery and the secret santa posture to accomplish their mission


I dont want to be hypercritical, but did they have to call it CHIP? it would probably grease easier thru the machinery with a diff name ...
Masons donated money to the construction of my old HS. I didnt know that until just recently when i saw the G on the flagpole plaque.

Do lodges qualify for IRS code 501.3c status? (i think thats the right code)

*btw, ive never seen a TROLL Tag Team on this board. (why did i pick this name? :0 )

[edit on 2005-4-13 by NuTroll]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by Zystesxt9
Geez, You "Freemasons" ARE blind, where in the bible does it say that that all seeing eye is a part of God?


I don't recall the Bible MENTIONING "parts" of God. Did you see that somewhere? What does that have to do with "symbolism" Huh? Oh, nothing.



Half of you guys have great looking pics, as your own mottos? or whatever they be.


Why thank you. Very nice of you to notice.



But, where in Jesus' name does your capstone come from?


Personally I don't have a capstone. I wish I did, though. I'll get back with you on that....as I'm sure it isn't mentioned in the Bible anywhere...not that that has anything to do with anything, but you seem to be hung up on in.



I would think that the capstone was of Egyptian descent! TRUE???


You're telling this story. You tell us.



Where on earth does Jesus ever mention anything regarding the torch of enlightenment?


Where on earth did you HEAR this? What is a "torch of enlightenment?" Did I miss something. Also, what's your hang-up with Jesus? Masonry isn't a Christian organization. We have a LOT of Christians, particularly in the U.S.A. but we have Jews, Muslims and members of numerous other faith communities. So I'd have to guess that not only did Jesus NOT mention the "torch of enlightenment" neither did anyone else...other than you Zytestes9.



The symbology surrounding this faith of yours is not at all anything related to Jesus, but you guys call him our great Emmanuel.


Uhmmm...when and where do "us guys" call Him that? Not in Masonic ritual. . . which (as has been said REPEATEDLY on this forum) is NOT a "faith" NOT A RELIGION. It's a FRATERNITY (Look the word up, you'll be surprised)



wow, if anyone here is so blind it is you guys.


There you go with that "you guys" again. I think YOU are blind. So there!



Here is another Freemason with a sign of a serpent with its tail in its mouth,


Ah yes, a symbol of eternity...never beginning, never ending. But Axeman (who's Avatar that is) is NOT a Freemason...although he's going to be and will be a good one.



circling a pyramid, with a symbol of the sun, and another capstone on it??? That doesn't appear to be a Jesus sign either.


Just exactly what IS a "Jesus sign?" And again, what would a so-called "Jesus sign" have to do with Freemasonry since it is NOT a religion or a Christian organization. ....it's a FRATERNITY



Now whos laughing??????


Several of US are...at YOU.



Intrepid, Where and when did Jesus ever say " YOU GOT SERVED"???


Why in that picture, of course. Didn't you see it with your own eyes? (You really have no sense of humor do you Zytestes9?)



maybe you have a different version of the bible than the version I have read.


I can't speak for Intrepid, but I'll bet I have a different version than you do. My version has ALL the books of the Bible including the Deuterocanonical books...none of this "abridged" version nonsense.



Also in reference to 'Mirthful Me' A favourite freemason of yours is Mr Wendy's, and Col Kentucky fried duck??? wow, these guys are part of the reason why so many of our kids today are soooo fat.


LOL! Typical...blame that on someone else...not on the PARENTS who should make their kids eat right. LOL! Dave Thomas and Harlan Sanders were HUGE contributors and supporters of Shriners Hospitals for Children as well as several other charitable organizations. Look into the things Dave Thomas did for adopted children.



I suppose Ronald MacD is a freemason as well, and his dressing up as a clown is what you guys are all about.


No, Ronald McDonald is a clown....like some of the members of this list...



WHO KNOWS?


Apparently YOU don't.



WHO CARES?


Apparently YOU do, or else you wouldn't spend so much time posting nonsense and lies about Freemasonry here...what about that???



Freemasonary is a tad bit criminal if you ask me.


But the point, Zytestes9, is that NO ONE ASKED YOU!



Did you know also that the guy that started the Watchtower Movement was also a 33rd degree freemason, Wicked huh,


Nope. Not wicked at all. It's a lie (now THAT'S wicked Zytestes9!)

Here's a nicely done list of famous NON-Masons....Charles Taze Russell, whom you mention, but not by name because you obviously didn't know but were just regurgitating garbage you'd heard elsewhere, isn't on it:

www.masonicinfo.com...



and that there is a capstone in the watchtower in his magazines????


Doesn't make it Masonic. We don't even use that symbol in Masonic ritual except a mention in the Royal Arch degree, but it's not the kind of capstone used on a Pyramid (which, by the way, ALSO isn't used in Masonic ritual) To top it ALL off, we have no copyright on the symbols we DO use...so anyone can use them for whatever reason...doesn't make them Masons.



HMMMMMMMM and you's have the nuts to laugh at us 'ilks'?


HA HA HA HA HA....yeah! I'll be laughing at you "ilks" all day long. I find you terribly amusing (in a pathetic sort of way)



Next time I come on maybe there will be some more researched info from you guys. and not just the ignoramus crap that us ilks have to deal with.


HA! You spew a bunch of nonsensical puke that you gleaned somewhere with ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF WHATSOEVER and say that WE need "more researched info" Now THAT'S funny, Zy ol' Troll.

I anxiously await the next time you crawl out from under your bridge.

Ta ta!



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by Zystesxt9
Here is some info on your occultish masonary fraternity, whatever u wish to call yourselves...


[much ridiculous nonsense snipped]

Look Zytestes9, if nothing else, learn to SPELL. There is NO SUCH WORD as "masonary" It's "Masonry" MasonRY (note there's only ONE "a") Also, it's Freemasonry. Not FreemasonAry. If you get nothing else right (which you haven't thus far, and likely won't) get THAT right.

You must have spent hours cutting and pasting and twisting all that ridiculous garbage you regurgitated. Why are you wasting your time, though? In the next post, at one point you said "who cares?" Well....WHO CARES?



Blessed Be


Back at ya!



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 09:14 AM
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Its laughable how we prove Freemasonry is bad over and over and the Freemasons here then spend every minute of their time trying to say its BS or invalid.

Just look at page 1 of this thread and you'll see how solid the proof was that Freemasonry is bad. Britians biggest crime gangster also a Masonic grandmaster and two pages on, Masons here are still trying to deny Freemasonry is bad.... there is about a dozen examples of this here on ATS and you Masons are not fooling anyone.

As for connections to Egyption stuff... Freemasonry is full of it.

As for Freemasonry being a fraternity and not a religion.... Freemasonry is both.

Freemasonry's biggest defense is that it does indeed do some good work but it is simply a cover to divert suspicions.

[edit on 13-4-2005 by Driver]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by Driver
well Freemasonry holds membersship many movers and shakers and string pullers and always has done so of course Freemasonry is involved in alot of world events.


But, how can you say this after the ones that you thought were mason's ended up not being masons? I mean, who, specifically are you talking about? Its not helpful to allude to a general masonic conspiracy. Its been done. Best to look at the specifics.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by Driver
Its laughable how we prove Freemasonry is bad over and over and the Freemasons here then spend every minute of their time trying to say its BS or invalid.


PROOF?! What proof? I have seen nothing but speculations and links to www.freemasonrywatch.com! If that's your idea of proof, then my friend you have a sick and twisted world perspective.


Just look at page 1 of this thread and you'll see how solid the proof was that Freemasonry is bad. Britians biggest crime gangster also a Masonic grandmaster and two pages on, Masons here are still trying to deny Freemasonry is bad.... there is about a dozen examples of this here on ATS and you Masons are not fooling anyone.


OK, looked, nothing. Oh wait... is this what you meant by proof?


Originally posted by Driver
OMG the biggest crime boss in Britain a grandmaster of a lodge!

Also, how about that phsycho serial killer in the USA that was the grandmaster of one of the lodges - forgot his name.

[edit on 9-4-2005 by Driver]

Ohh and how about Prince Philip being the head of the Scottish Rite... this guy is a Nazi, a Satanist and a gangster.

Though I do not disagree most Masons do good stuff and charity work.


Spectacular.



As for connections to Egyption stuff... Freemasonry is full of it.


Really? Where? Show me. I dare you.


As for Freemasonry being a fraternity and not a religion.... Freemasonry is both.


Really? Show me how. I dare you.


Freemasonry's biggest defense is that it does indeed do some good work but it is simply a cover to divert suspicions.


Says you. Could it be that Freemasons do good work to (and here's something for you to think about) HELP PEOPLE?!? *shock*

I would feel sorry for you if this crap you are spouting wasn't so pathetic and tired. Can't you come up with something that hasn't been gone over and over and over and over again?


Oh and have a nice day.



And hey Senrak, thanks for the great compliment.
I appreciate that.

[edit on 4/13/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by Zystesxt9
Freemasonary is a tad bit criminal if you ask me.

How? What criminal endavours does the organization engage in?

Where and when did Jesus ever say [...] That doesn't appear to be a Jesus sign either

What does that matter? I thought you were a wiccan btw? Why does it matter if freemasonry has symbols that aren't in the bible? There aren't many symbols in the bible anyway. The crucifix isn't a symbol in the bible, neither is the fish. Whats it matter? The all seeing eye is a symbol for god, up in the sky, looking down on everyone, etc etc. The masons started off as something like a labour union for engineers/architects/stone cutters or somesuch, why should it be a surprise that it include things from the pyramids, a huge monument to architecture/engineering/stone-mason-work? The snake eating its tail, its the world serpent, you should know that, you're a wiccan. True, its not a 'christian symbol' insofar as the apostels probably didn't make it, but so what? Lots of paganistic beleifs, practices, and symbols have been adopted and incorporated into christianity, like the death and resurection and crucifixtion itself. So whats it matter? These things are symbols, they have not real 'meaning' or influence on reality.


driver
we prove Freemasonry is bad over and over and the Freemasons here then spend every minute of their time trying to say its BS or invalid.

You have not demonstrated, or even been able to reasonably suggest, that freemasonry itself is bad. There are bad masons. That no more makes masonry bad than having good masons makes it good. The instiution, the lodges, are independant. The only 'unifying' thing are the rituals. The rituals are not inherently bad or good. Certianly, no one here has demonstrated that they are bad. Heck, no one has demonstrated that any particular town lodge 'heads' have engaged in criminal behaviour. I'd think that there must be lots of masons who got to 'high organizational offices' and haven't been good people. But you haven't even shown which ones. And you haven't shown how that makes the institution itself 'bad'. It should be possible. One can demonstrate, say, institutional racism in the NYFD (theoretically at least), or one can demonstrate institutionalized bias or 'constitutional bias' in any organization. SO why can't you demonstrate it for freemasonry?
And doesn't the fact that most of the people being mentioedn as 'evil masons' aren't even masons? Also, while I'm not a JW, why would, even if it had been true, the masonic status of its founder matter? JW's aren't 'evil', they're people.

As for Freemasonry being a fraternity and not a religion.... Freemasonry is both.

Check, its a fraternity nad not a religion.
Ha, couldn't resist.
Demonstrate that its a religion. Should be doable right? Are all frats religions? They all have rituals.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 10:53 AM
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Freemasonry is all ancient Egyption knowledge and advanced solar knowledge.... the kind of information that has been sucked out of circulation and kept to the mystery schools like Freemasonry.

Also, they worship the Baophomot, have a whole structure and titles that seem like theres a religion goin on.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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Demonstrate that they worhsip baphomet, that they have arcane egpytian mystery knowledge.

The structure, why must that be religion? College Frats have structure, are they each indepenant religions? They have rites, initiates, etc etc.

If the members of a group say 'we are not a religion', and is made up of people that worhsip different gods, is it not then best to say that its not a religion?

If a pious christ-worshiper, an orthodoxic jew, and practicing hindus and arabs can be masons, then how can masonry be said to be a religion? And a paganistic one at that?



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 12:05 PM
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Uhhh... [groan]... [can't... take... much...more...]

Ok, first of all - spelling. It's poor, quite frankly, and since I make the effort to ensure my posts are spelt correctly so it's easier to divine my meaning, I'd be most grateful if you'd accord me the same courtesy.

Secondly, I'm not going to comment on any of your last post as it's utter and complete fantasy, with no basis in fact. In fact I've weeded out the rubbish, and what remains of your post that I can agree with is...


Freemasonry is ... ancient ... and advanced ....


Instead, lets just see if we can decide, here and now, if Freemasonry is a religion.

    No clergy
    No dogma, canon law or liturgy
    No offer of salvation or eternal life
    Denies it is a religion
    Insists members follow their own existing faith as a condition of membership
    Does not offer atonement of sins, confession, or forgiveness to members
    Religious discussion is banned
    No attempt to convert people


Finally, lets have a little look at what The United Grand Lodge of England has to say on the matter:


It cannot be too strongly asserted that Masonry is neither a religion nor a substitute for religion. Masonry seeks to inculcate in its members a standard of conduct and behaviour which it believes to be acceptable to all creeds, but studiously refrains from intervening in the field of dogma or theology. Masonry, therefore, is not a competitor with religion though in the sphere of human conduct it may be hoped that its teaching will be complementary to that of religion. On the other hand its basic requirement that every member of the Order shall believe in a Supreme Being and the stress laid upon his duty towards Him should be sufficient evidence to all but the wilfully prejudiced that Masonry is an upholder of religion since it both requires a man to have some form of religious belief before he can be admitted as a Mason, and expects him when admitted to go on practising his religion.


So, whaddya reckon, ol' Mr Drivel me ol' buddy me ol' pal? Still think freemasonry is a religion?

Come on, don't be shy... tell us what you really think



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by Driver
Its laughable how we prove Freemasonry is bad over and over and the Freemasons here then spend every minute of their time trying to say its BS or invalid.

Just look at page 1 of this thread and you'll see how solid the proof was that Freemasonry is bad. Britians biggest crime gangster also a Masonic grandmaster and two pages on, Masons here are still trying to deny Freemasonry is bad.... there is about a dozen examples of this here on ATS and you Masons are not fooling anyone.

As for connections to Egyption stuff... Freemasonry is full of it.

As for Freemasonry being a fraternity and not a religion.... Freemasonry is both.

Freemasonry's biggest defense is that it does indeed do some good work but it is simply a cover to divert suspicions.

[edit on 13-4-2005 by Driver]


So because a few masons have done bad things, all of freemasonry is bad? That is some twisted logic, Drivel. You have absolutely failed to provide any kind of conclusive proof of your claims. And you've been challenged to do this on several different threads.

BIG WORDS FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS REFUSED SEVERAL CHALLENGES TO PROVIDE CONOCLUSIVE EVIDENCE FOR HIS CLAIMS.

'Nuff said.




[edit on 13-4-2005 by sebatwerk]

[edit on 13-4-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by Zystesxt9

Originally posted by sebatwerk I am a 3rd degree mason, and THAT is the highest rank any mason can get. Any other degree is an APPENDANT DEGREE, and is in addition to being a 3rd degree Master Mason.


First of all you say that the 3rd degree is the highest you can get, but here is Senrak claiming to be a 32nd degree??? GO FIGURE< 3rd degree the highest, and senrak 32nd degree??? hmmmm, blinders are on dude.


Did you read what I said above!?!?! Degrees above the Third Degree are ADDITIONAL degrees. Senrak is a 3rd degree AND a 32nd degree mason. Who's got the blinders on? You can't even read my statements before you reply to them!


[edit on 13-4-2005 by sebatwerk]



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