The Archaeology of Sound; The Oracle Chamber Of Malta’s Hypogeum Of Ħal-Saflieni

burntheships
reply to post by Maltese5Rhino

 

The Times of Malta seems an interesting read, I was
searching to find out how far one can still walk in
these underground catacombs?

Older articles said one could go a long distance
underground. ( not that one would catch me doing it of course)

not even with a torch.

Yeah depending on how far your fear allows you! But now a days they have barriers and ropes stopping you from going to far in the caverns in Malta.

There are loads though and I strongly suggest coming to Malta and visiting the main ones at least.

Ghar Dalam
Hypgeum as you well know

St Pauls Catacombs

As a child my mum would drop me off all over the Island and Id spend hours upon hours just wandering the caves and systerns.... One I found really daunting one time where I got lost.. It as at the Germa Fort in Marsascala (Again South of Malta)

Since my little incident they blocked off the tunnels completely but they run all through out Marsascala and are built just like the ones in Valletta you can still go to. There are rumors and many Maltese Historians want to reopen the Marsascala Tunnels as they may have older tunnels from the Temple Builders that in the medieval times and again in WWII were developed further.

The whole Maltese mythos is one of my favorites! They say the megaliths were built by giants but the Hypogeum seems very much to be directed for regular human use. It is fascinating when you think of all the planning and tidius work required to build such a place.

Maltese5Rhino

As a child my mum would drop me off all over the Island and Id spend hours upon hours just wandering the caves and systerns.... One I found really daunting one time where I got lost.. It as at the Germa Fort in Marsascala (Again South of Malta)

Since my little incident they blocked off the tunnels completely but they run all through out Marsascala and are built just like the ones in Valletta you can still go to.

Your adventure brings up the images of an Indiana Jones movie, did you encounter
anything that was unusual to you as a child, or scary?

After reading the story of the missing children, I recalled a few Indy movies,
wondering if that was one of the stories that might have inspired the plot.

Thank you for posting the pictures, the one structure looks massive!

burntheships


Your adventure brings up the images of an Indiana Jones movie, did you encounter
anything that was unusual to you as a child, or scary?

After reading the story of the missing children, I recalled a few Indy movies,
wondering if that was one of the stories that might have inspired the plot.

Thank you for posting the pictures, the one structure looks massive!

Well there was one time that I cant remember as I was only 5 years old at the time but my mum always reminded me of a time when she Took me to the dungeons in Mdina - Yeah a bit mental for a mother to bring her 5 year old child to the dungeons but she was a history fanatic and since having me she couldnt go just herself to sites across Malta so I came along. Anyhow what happend to me was this...

As my mum was walking with me through the passage ways, I suddenly started screaming shouting at the walls to stop the noise. She lost her grip of my hand and I ended up running and finding my way out at which point the curator caught me and tried to calm me down. When my mum caught up she asked me what happend and I replied 'Mum I think people are being hurt down there' 'They are screaming'

The Curator joked with my mum saying quite proudly it was the new sound system they installed in the tunnels to acompany the props for the 'effect' Then my mum told him that she couldn't hear a thing..... Turns out the egineer had turned off the sound system that day for repairs.

That whole time I only knew that we were visiting one of the sections of the main Fort in Mdina (My mum didnt want me to freak out and assumed I wouldnt really realise) The whole incedent freaked out the Curator of the Dungeons and since then its obvious to anyone it was a dungeon for all the wax work sculptures of people being tortured but 20 years ago it was just filled with cobwebs and empty gated rooms.

Since my case and before there have been a few times that children have been known to tell thier parents they hear dead people in other sites across the Islands.

Freaky stuff but I can't remember any of it, Kinda glad I have forgotten it to be honest.

TheBloodRed
They say the megaliths were built by giants but the Hypogeum seems very much to be directed for regular human use.

Yes, if I recall, the estimated height of the remains found was under 5 feet.
Now, how these short people managed to do this type of temple building
is quite impressive.

There was a woman in the story that claimed to have seen some "giant" looking
hairy people underground, Ms. Jessup.

Too bad she did not have an iphone or portable camera ah.

reply to post by Maltese5Rhino


Oooh, your story give me chills, no doubt...
I can imagine you would want to forget that,
children can be very perceptive.

I read that concerning this Hypogeum at Hal Saflieni, due to the
mass amount of skeletons, and the proximity of the remains
that were found the people were thought to be dead already.

I wonder if there is any written record or account of the tombs
or underground structures that were used for torture purposes?

burntheships
reply to post by Maltese5Rhino

 

I read that concerning this Hypogeum at Hal Saflieni, due to the
mass amount of skeletons, and the proximity of the remains
that were found the people were thought to be dead already.

I wonder if there is any written record or account of the tombs
or underground structures that were used for torture purposes?

Well there is little evidence of Human Sacrifice in the Maltese Islands but there are a few cases in Gigantija (Gozo) where neck vertibre seem to have been slashed but the bodies were disposed of in the 'grave pits' just like all the rest of the dead. Mostly assumed to be people murded by an individual/s as any murdercase and then buried by the family/comunity. Nothing seemed to be special about them.

Animal Scarifice is some what common but no where near the same scale as other cultures. I am trying to look for a number of animal sacrifice related finds but most likely they dont even hit double digits. Even though the Temples of Malta are called 'Temples' They only have one area specifically for religion in each site such as a small room with an altar compared to the rest of the complex where food was stored and bricks were made etc. These Alters are the only artifact that has any reference to Animal/Human Sacrifice.

Then again its only that the skeletons themselves do not show markings, There are many ways someone can be tortured without the bones being effected and with very little written record from the Hypogeum period doesnt give much help.

Sad to say, Humans are humans and im sure some poor sod has suffered torture by a fellow person during these times.

reply to post by Maltese5Rhino


Tis very true, and even now that these archaic forms of torture are no
longer accepted, there still exists that same spirt alive today,
it has a different appearance, yet still the same.

Thanks much for your contributions, on happy note
Malta looks to be a beautiful place to live.

Danbones

Harte

Danbones
reply to post by Harte

 

Obviously, you can't provide a source because limestone has no such special acoustic properties.

wow BACK THAT UP PLEASE!!!
this i gotta see!!!

I'll forgive your ignorance not everyone has a good set of ears that they get paid to use

I explained why Limestone has its own virtues regarding sound in carved spaces
and at 196,000 samples per sec I ain't screwing around

Show me: Link
Like I said, not propagation through limestone beds. I want you to show me how limestone is a better reflector of sound (ala the Greek Theater) than other stones.

Harte

BRUHN Limestone has high insulating and acoustic properties that will ensure all projects are energy conscious and support government green star ratings.

right from your own link
limestone with unique acoustic properties

Nothing there about any "unique" properties of limestone.

Do you suspect that other hard stones don't reflect sound as well as limestone? Why do you think this?

That is the question.

Harte

it is believed that in the early Neolithic culture of Anatolia and the Near East the deceased were deliberately exposed in order to be excarnated by vultures and other carrion birds. (The head of the deceased was sometimes removed and preserved — possibly a sign of ancestor worship.)....

The tell includes two phases of ritual use dating back to the 10th-8th millennium BC. During the first phase (Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA)), circles of massive T-shaped stone pillars were erected. More than 200 pillars in about 20 circles are currently known through geophysical surveys. Each pillar has a height of up to 6 m (20 ft) and a weight of up to 20 tons. They are fitted into sockets that were hewn out of the bedrock.[5] In the second phase (Pre-pottery Neolithic B (PPNB)), the erected pillars are smaller. They stood in rectangular rooms. These rooms had floors of polished lime. Obviously, the site was abandoned after the PPNB-period. Younger structures date to classical times.

The function of the structures is not yet clear. The most common opinion, shared by excavator Klaus Schmidt, is that they are early neolithic sanctuaries.

en.wikipedia.org...

supposedly the closest we have found to civilization at that time...
nice big flat reflective surfaces...possible astrological symbols

off with thier heads.....

Harte

Danbones

Harte

Danbones
reply to post by Harte

 

Obviously, you can't provide a source because limestone has no such special acoustic properties.

wow BACK THAT UP PLEASE!!!
this i gotta see!!!

I'll forgive your ignorance not everyone has a good set of ears that they get paid to use

I explained why Limestone has its own virtues regarding sound in carved spaces
and at 196,000 samples per sec I ain't screwing around

Show me: Link
Like I said, not propagation through limestone beds. I want you to show me how limestone is a better reflector of sound (ala the Greek Theater) than other stones.

Harte

BRUHN Limestone has high insulating and acoustic properties that will ensure all projects are energy conscious and support government green star ratings.

right from your own link
limestone with unique acoustic properties

Nothing there about any "unique" properties of limestone.

Do you suspect that other hard stones don't reflect sound as well as limestone? Why do you think this?

That is the question.

Harte

i just quoted the selling points of a particular limestone from a company selling on one of your links Harte
its your link...its thier selling point
what is so difficult to grasp about that?

nothing new under the sun

Stanford Physicist: Vast, Powerful Realm Between Particles Influenced by Human Consciousness

Stanford University Professor Emeritus William A. Tiller has been researching a level of physical reality hitherto undetectable with conventional measurement instruments.

He says two kinds of substances exist:

1. The electric atom/molecule level: Substances on this level can be measured with traditional instruments. We can measure them because they are electric-charge based.

2. The magnetic information waves level: Tiller explains in an introduction to his research on his website: “This new level of substance, because it appears to function in the physical vacuum (the empty space between the fundamental electric particles that make up our normal electric atoms and molecules), is currently invisible to us and to our traditional measurement instruments.”

This second type of substance has great power, and it is affected by human thought.

www.theepochtimes.com...

ah...the sound of the universe...
and it's a two way street....

I am now going to buy some mountainous land and chisel out something very much like this

I very much want to have my own sonic temple hideout where I can beam the highest quality FLAC files around, lay back and trip into nirvana. Modulate all the lighting with LEDs.

Maybe even keep a few gallons of my special tea around, brewed from only locally sourced fungi and plants.

On Monday, March 3 at 10pm EST. Please check the ATS Live Forum for the show thread for S2E8.

Bellor
I am now going to buy some mountainous land and chisel out something very much like this

I very much want to have my own sonic temple hideout where I can beam the highest quality FLAC files around, lay back and trip into nirvana. Modulate all the lighting with LEDs.

Maybe even keep a few gallons of my special tea around, brewed from only locally sourced fungi and plants.

Cool, it looks like they only lop off your head after you are dead...so no worries

ANcestor worship I would guess would be a descendant of this practice...

if you were to listen to the mp3 i posted earlier as an example
It is an artifact of something like that....
and if you you listen closely to it you can hear the computer/ synth parts are part of the spontainious composition process...as also was like what you said

Danbones

Harte

Danbones

Harte

Danbones
reply to post by Harte

 

Obviously, you can't provide a source because limestone has no such special acoustic properties.

wow BACK THAT UP PLEASE!!!
this i gotta see!!!

I'll forgive your ignorance not everyone has a good set of ears that they get paid to use

I explained why Limestone has its own virtues regarding sound in carved spaces
and at 196,000 samples per sec I ain't screwing around

Show me: Link
Like I said, not propagation through limestone beds. I want you to show me how limestone is a better reflector of sound (ala the Greek Theater) than other stones.

Harte

BRUHN Limestone has high insulating and acoustic properties that will ensure all projects are energy conscious and support government green star ratings.

right from your own link
limestone with unique acoustic properties

Nothing there about any "unique" properties of limestone.

Do you suspect that other hard stones don't reflect sound as well as limestone? Why do you think this?

That is the question.

Harte

i just quoted the selling points of a particular limestone from a company selling on one of your links Harte
its your link...its thier selling point
what is so difficult to grasp about that?

It's quite simple to grasp that stone blocks the transmission of sound, which is what you quoted.

So does granite, sandstone, marble, gneiss, brick and concrete, for that matter.

Also, you actually stated that limestone has "unique" acoustic properties, even going so far as to claim that the word "unique" applied in the ad when it certainly doesn't.

Do you need limestone to have "unique" acoustic properties for some personal reason?
I assure you it does not.

Harte

reply to post by Harte

Acoustic velocity properties of Danian limestone
Department of Geology, Delta State University, Abraka, Delta State, Nigeria

In order to establish the relationship existing between the seismic velocity and petrophysical properties of limestone, ultrasonic pulse transmission technique under simulated pressure of 2.5 to 10 Mpa and at a frequency of 300 to 800 kHz was used in the determination of both compressional-wave and shear- wave velocities. The measurements were carried out for both dry and fluid saturated limestone obtained from the Curfs quarry in Limburg, Southeastern Netherlands. Compressional wave velocities values range from 2218.2 to 3280 ms-1 for dry samples and 2448 to 3730 ms-1 for fluid saturated samples. While those for shear-wave velocities values range from 2024 to 2982 ms-1 for dry samples and 1568.2 to 2024 for fluid saturated samples.These velocities values were used to constrained limestone into two lithogic units- the compacted limestone units, also know as the hardgrounds (high velocity values) and undercompacted limestone units (low velocity values). The compressional wave velocities of fluid saturated limestone samples are relatively higher than those obtained for equivalent dry ones, while the shear wave velocities of the same fluid saturated limestone samples were lower than the dry ones. The degree of diagnesis in the weakly cement limestone is responsible for the high value of both compressional- wave and shear wave velocities obtained from the acoustic velocity measurement. The velocity obtained from the time average equation is much more than the velocity obtained from the laboratory measurement of velocity for the curfs quarry.
Key words: Acoustic, compressional and shear-wave velocity, cement, fluid saturation.

academicjournals.org...

now, for a thing to have properties....

hulk smash

"A word spoken in this room is magnified a hundredfold and is audible throughout the entire structure. The effect upon the credulous can be imagined when the oracle spoke and the words came thundering forth through the dark and mysterious place with terrifying impressiveness." [1]....

...Descending over stone barriers into shadows, he found underground rooms opening up before him -- three stories of sculpted man-sized burrow suggesting some fantasy realm of Mother Earth. Columns and windows defining and tantalizing, spaces cut out of the stone as if it were soft cheese. With all that breathtaking visual weirdness, the odd echo of his footsteps may have gone unnoticed at first. Following the curve, he had to step down another three feet to reach the floor of a dead-end gourd-shaped room hollowed out of solid limestone: the Oracle Chamber.

On the ceiling, painted tendrils and disk patterns of red ocher spin out from the entrance, ending just above the chin-level niche in the side wall. Researcher Paul Devereux.[2] is among those who think that these could represent acoustical notation. Dark stains on the rim of the niche testify to the resting of many hands in a natural pose as one’s face is aimed toward the painted red lozenges on the wall within. Could these be target spots for achieving the best sound effects? Nearby, at the closed end of the chamber, a distinctive curved channel has been cut at the top of the concave wall. Was this designed to enhance the amplification? Is it possible that the designers of these spaces knew something that modern scientists are just rediscovering? What is this strange giant sculpture? It hasn’t changed much. It is a dark and mysterious place, even today[


To the Romans it was Melita: “honey” in the color of the golden limestone or a specialty product of the local bees. Earlier Phoenician traders called it Maleth, for its safe refuge. We don’t know what it was called six thousand years ago when prehistoric architects came up with the idea to build megalithic temples here. The resulting constructions are the oldest monuments on earth: at least a millennium ahead of Stonehenge and the Pyramids. Our present purpose is to explore the possibility that sound played a large part in the process of their evolution.

www.otsf.org...

just a general refereance in support of the OP and to cover my butt with

Danbones
reply to post by Harte

 

Acoustic velocity properties of Danian limestone
Department of Geology, Delta State University, Abraka, Delta State, Nigeria

In order to establish the relationship existing between the seismic velocity and petrophysical properties of limestone, ultrasonic pulse transmission technique under simulated pressure of 2.5 to 10 Mpa and at a frequency of 300 to 800 kHz was used in the determination of both compressional-wave and shear- wave velocities. The measurements were carried out for both dry and fluid saturated limestone obtained from the Curfs quarry in Limburg, Southeastern Netherlands. Compressional wave velocities values range from 2218.2 to 3280 ms-1 for dry samples and 2448 to 3730 ms-1 for fluid saturated samples. While those for shear-wave velocities values range from 2024 to 2982 ms-1 for dry samples and 1568.2 to 2024 for fluid saturated samples.These velocities values were used to constrained limestone into two lithogic units- the compacted limestone units, also know as the hardgrounds (high velocity values) and undercompacted limestone units (low velocity values). The compressional wave velocities of fluid saturated limestone samples are relatively higher than those obtained for equivalent dry ones, while the shear wave velocities of the same fluid saturated limestone samples were lower than the dry ones. The degree of diagnesis in the weakly cement limestone is responsible for the high value of both compressional- wave and shear wave velocities obtained from the acoustic velocity measurement. The velocity obtained from the time average equation is much more than the velocity obtained from the laboratory measurement of velocity for the curfs quarry.
Key words: Acoustic, compressional and shear-wave velocity, cement, fluid saturation.

academicjournals.org...

now, for a thing to have properties....

All of which might have some relevance if we were talking about sound traveling through a stone bed.

However, that's not the subject, is it? No, the subject is sound reflecting off of a stone bed, which you stated limestone has some "unique" property for.

It doesn't.

Harte

reply to post by Harte

it doesan't?
prove it

only this time use links that don't impeach your self

ACOUSTIC PROPERTIES OF LIMESTONES FROM THE NORTH-CENTRAL PACIFIC,
DEEP SEA DRILLING PROJECT LEG 621

www.deepseadrilling.org...
AGAIN from your link


and again again:

The density-velocity relationship of the carbonates shows excellent correlation with Gardners curve for limestone. The
general Gardners curve, however, underestimates the velocities of the volcaniclastics. Laboratory porosity-velocity trends of the
carbonates are consistently 5% to 20% higher than those predicted by the time-average equation using the correct matrix velocities.
Similar crossplots for the volcaniclastics show a division into two distinct subgroups, each corresponding to a time-average
equation with a different matrix velocity, which suggests that progressive diagenetic alteration of the volcaniclastics has decreased
the matrix velocity. The VjJVs
ratios of the carbonates do not discriminate mineralogic composition. Laboratory measurements,
under effective pressure simulating in situ conditions, are 5% to 25% higher than analyses of velocity made aboard JOIDES
Resolution under atmospheric pressure.
The carbonates at Site 866 have a considerably wider range of acoustic impedance than the basalt. As a consequence, the
contact between the carbonate succession and the underlying basalt basement in many drowned Cretaceous guyots of the equatorial
Pacific Ocean may be difficult to image seismic-reflection profiles

doesn't matter the fundamental frequency...there will be harmonics in pretty much all human defined ranges which are arbitrary and reflect the definitions imposed by scientific disciplines