NEWS: Woman Charged With Cutting Off Arms And Killing Baby in Texas

A woman who had a history of post partum depression apparently hacked off the arms of her baby. and then calmly waited after talking to a 911 operator for the EMS and police to arrive. A concerned husband had called the day care center and asked them to check in on his wife. Alarmed by the conversation with the mother, the day care center called 911 who in turn called the house. to inform the police of the situation. EMS personnel found the girl in a bedroom and transported he to the hospital where she dies later.



This really highlights the danger and tragedy of post partum depression. Many women are afflicted with it and it goes often undiagnosed. There are several questions that need answering in this case. The mother had previously been investigated by Child Protective Services (CPS) for potential issues relating to her depression. It is unclear if she had undergone treatment for the problem. Also as the article pointed out why did the father ask the day care center to call and not himself? This is clearly the act of someone suffering from a mental illness and she will need help for the rest of her life. As the father of a 2 year old, I would not be able to live with myself If I had harmed by toddler this way.

[edit on 11/23/04 by FredT]

Man cutting off the arms of a 11 month old man that lady is sick. I think she has more things wrong with her then post partum depression. I hope she does not get off on a insanity plea. Since this happened in Texas she should get the death penalty.

Here's an interesting article on Post-partum Depression:

Postpartum psychosis is the most severe form of postpartum psychiatric illness.

The condition is rare and occurs in approximately 1-2 per 1000 women after childbirth.

At highest risk are women with a personal history of bipolar disorder or a previous episode of postpartum psychosis.

Postpartum psychosis has a dramatic onset, emerging as early as the first 48-72 hours after delivery. In most women, symptoms develop within the first 2 postpartum weeks.

The condition resembles a rapidly evolving manic or mixed episode with symptoms such as restlessness and insomnia, irritability, rapidly shifting depressed or elated mood, and disorganized behavior.

The mother may have delusional beliefs that relate to the infant (eg, baby is defective or dying, infant is Satan or God), or she may have auditory hallucinations that instruct her to harm herself or her infant.

Risks for infanticide and suicide are high among women with untreated postpartum psychosis.

[...]

Puerperal psychosis

Puerperal psychosis is a psychiatric emergency that typically requires inpatient treatment.

Most patients with postpartum psychosis have bipolar disorder. Acute treatment includes a mood stabilizer (eg, lithium, valproic acid, carbamazepine) in combination with antipsychotic medications and benzodiazepines.

ECT (often bilateral) is well tolerated and rapidly effective.

Risk of suicide is significant in this population.

Rates of infanticide associated with untreated puerperal psychosis are as high as 4%.

www.emedicine.com...

www.google.com...

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Man cutting off the arms of a 11 month old man that lady is sick. I think she has more things wrong with her then post partum depression. I hope she does not get off on a insanity plea. Since this happened in Texas she should get the death penalty.

Im a huge death penalty type, but in this case, to do soemthing like this she is clearly sick. She will in all likelyhood not be able to deal with her actions when she is better and the odds of her taking her own life are pretty good down the road.

Andrea Yates drowned her five children to save them from Satan. She had a history of PPD. Women's groups blamed her husband and Christianity. Her family blamed her MD. The jury found her guilty, but spared her the death penalty.

Profile of Andrea Yates
Infanticide

Andrea filled the tub with water and beginning with Paul, she systematically drowned the three youngest boys, then placed them on her bed and covered them. Mary was left floating in the tub. The last child alive was the first born, seven-year-old Noah. He asked his mother what was wrong with Mary, then turned and ran away. Andrea caught up with him and as he screamed, she dragged him and forced him into the tub next to Mary's floating body. He fought desperately, coming up for air twice, but Andrea held him down until he was dead. Leaving Noah in the tub, she brought Mary to the bed and laid her in the arms of her brothers.

crime.about.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

Andrea Yates Becomes Martyr for Feminists' Attack on Motherhood

Lisa De Pasquale
Program Director

(Originally appeared in The Houston Chronicle)

The Texas National Organization for Women has helped establish the Andrea Pia Yates Support Coalition, a group of organizations that support confessed murderer Andrea Yates, a Houston-area woman who systematically murdered all five of her children in their bathtub. Information on supporting the coalition has been featured by Katie Couric on The Today Show.

Deborah Bell, the coalition�s organizer and president of the Houston NOW chapter stated that the coalition "may be some of the most important work of my life." She also explained, "One reason I am able to do so much [for the coalition] is that I am actually being paid a small amount from the Texas NOW State Chapter."

One of the coalition�s "main points" is to let Yates know "that she is not alone, that there are thousands who care about her and that we will stand by her."

www.cblpolicyinstitute.org...

Rigid Christian Sex Roles Hurt Andrea Yates

(WOMENSENEWS)--Various players in the Andrea Yates tragedy have attracted national scrutiny: the psychotic mother, her five drowned children, her husband, psychiatrists and family members.

Each one, no doubt, played a role in the ultimate tragedy. However, there's one more character, without which the long, sad story would not have happened: a conservative Christian culture that continues to empower abusive husbands while telling women they belong at home with their children--as many children as God and their own fertility provide.

Before marrying Russell Yates, Andrea Kennedy was a successful young woman working as a post-operative nurse. She enjoyed regular swimming and jogging and was from a Roman Catholic family.

When Yates and Kennedy decided to marry, both felt that contraception was wrong. Accepting "as many children as God sends" is still the ideal being urged upon Christians by the Roman Catholic Church and by many small, independent biblical churches, entrapping women like Andrea Yates, who had five children and one miscarriage during her eight years of marriage.

www.womensenews.org...

The Andrea Yates verdict is insane

A mentally ill mother is guilty of little more than extraordinary need and dangerous fragility, and both are beyond her control

March 14, 2002 | As a jury in Texas begins to consider the fate of Andrea Yates, the mentally ill mother who killed her five children in the belief that she would rescue them from Satan's grasp, a jury of film industry types is about to consider the fate of "A Beautiful Mind," and actor Russell Crowe, who played the role of mentally ill mathematician John Nash. The Texas jury will decide whether Yates should be executed for her psychotic behavior; later this month, the Hollywood jury will decide whether Crowe deserves an Academy Award for his convincing portrayal of psychotic behavior.

www.salon.com...

It will be interesting to see if this case becomes a cause celebre for the various movements who use the tragedy of others to advance their causes, just as "Jane Roe" was shamelessly used by the feminist movement to legalize abortion.

Will infantacide become the next step in a "woman's right to choose?"

Grady, that is a bit of a stretch and you know it. She will go to jail and thats about it. And no, they will not leagalize the killing of already born babies.

Originally posted by FredT

Im a huge death penalty type, but in this case, to do soemthing like this she is clearly sick. She will in all likelyhood not be able to deal with her actions when she is better and the odds of her taking her own life are pretty good down the road.

I think she will have a good insanity case if she decides to go down that road because of the nature of the crime and history of mental illness. In which case I would bet she would spend the rest of her life in a mental instution. Well atleast until she commits suicide like you suggested.

GradyPhilpott,

You work in the social services area, correct? Have you deal with any women like this?

On the subject, little words manifest themselves. I don't know what to say, though, my buddy told me some weeks ago that his wife was also suffering from PPD -- she just had a child...

Scary..

Deep

Originally posted by FredT
Im a huge death penalty type, but in this case, to do soemthing like this she is clearly sick.

Yes, but why is the death penalty put in place? To reform these people? A bit difficult to turn over a new leaf when the best one can do is push up daisies, I imagine.

The purpose of the death penalty is to protect the general society from those seen as capable of going out of their way to intentionally harm the citizens of that populus. Whether one is criminally insane, or unbalenced or retarted should make no difference. You kill without valid provacation then you are taken out of the game so as not to do it again. Is a life in prison really more of a humaniterian sentence? Does it help people to sleep at night to think that the individual wasn't sentenced to death and they were taken out of my line of sight so I didn't have to think about what they are going through as an alternative. Out of sight, out of guilt?

So this woman had a mental disorder, so ------ what!?! I'm messed up six ways till Tuesday, but you don't see me killing anyone outside of self preservation. Are we suppose to say that she was just having a 'Bad Day' and move on? Are we suppose to finantially support someone that harms us? This of course is retorical and not directed at anyone specific.


Edited upon request~ Jonna

[edit on 23-11-2004 by Jonna]

Edited again....

[edit on 11-23-2004 by Zion Mainframe]

Originally posted by Jonna

The purpose of the death penalty is to protect the general society from those seen as capable of going out of their way to intentionally harm the citizens of that populus.

Maybe she figured cutting off the kids arms and acting calm would ensure an insanity plea. Like you said, death penalty for these cases might make future baby killers think twice about their chances at getting away with murder.

Bullet to the back of the head would be good justice as well as merciful. It's not like you can let this person back out in society. She might go nuts again and start sniping toddlers or something. If you were so honestly sick in the head that in a moment of insanity you cut the arms off a child, would you want to live when you became lucid again? Personally, I'd blow my own brains out at the earliest convenience.

[edit on 23-11-2004 by taibunsuu]

Originally posted by FredT
Grady, that is a bit of a stretch and you know it. She will go to jail and thats about it. And no, they will not leagalize the killing of already born babies.

My good man. I don't have the references handy, but ten years ago, when I was in graduate school doing social research, I found feminist journals advocating just such a movement. In a conversation with some of my feminist colleagues, I informed them that the next big push of the envelope would be justified infanticide and they were as incredulous as you are.
Then came the Yates case and I can tell you that I knew women who were rabid supporters of this woman.

So, Fred, wait and see. It probably won't be this case, but you will in time see more and more pressure to let women off the hook for murdering their children.

Thirty years ago, what would have happened, if at your local bar, you informed your buddies that in little more than a quarter of a century men would be marrying men and women would be marrying women.

Sixty years ago, who would have thought that abortion would be legal.

It will come to pass, Fred.

Maybe its time to allow Burning of Witches Again. Skitz or not, Dismemberment of a live infant with its only crime is being born to satans daughter has to top any Horificaly Disturbing List without even seeing the crime seen! Who would want to... I pray god gave that child peace before and after that sickened attack!!

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Thirty years ago, what would have happened, if at your local bar, you informed your buddies that in little more than a quarter of a century men would be marrying men and women would be marrying women.

Grady, I grew up in the SF Bay Area, so in all likelyhood not much would have come of it here. But eleswhere, they would have been riots no doubt

I have never worked with a client who murdered a child. I've seen some terrible things done by parents, but nothing on the magnatude of this. Of course, it's a little late for CPS at this point.

[edit on 04/11/23 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Maybe she figured cutting off the kids arms and acting calm would ensure an insanity plea.

I didn't mean to insinuate that she had planned it or was faking it by any means. I simply meant that if you can not control yourself once then it is quite likely that you can not control yourself again. Of course this is a relative issue as we are not speaking about having an extra dessert or sneaking a cigarette, but rather the self control involved in not snuffing out another life upon urge. Sure we have all thought about killing someone that cuts you off on the highway or the school yard bully that picked on you, but we are different from merely an instinctual animal becuase we can control our urges.

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Maybe she figured cutting off the kids arms and acting calm would ensure an insanity plea.

I didn't mean to insinuate that she had planned it or was faking it by any means. I simply meant that if you can not control yourself once then it is quite likely that you can not control yourself again. Of course this is a relative issue as we are not speaking about having an extra dessert or sneaking a cigarette, but rather the self control involved in not snuffing out another life upon urge. Sure we have all thought about killing someone that cuts you off on the highway or the school yard bully that picked on you, but we are different from merely an instinctual animal becuase we can control our urges.

Yeah but you have to admit that deterrence in the form of punishment helps people decide not to do things.

Some people are damn cold blooded, and will do anything as long as it doesn't affect them personally. They only think of themselves, so if there's a too high of a chance that they'll be punished, they won't do it. Morality doesn't even enter the equation.

Post partem depression, being oldest of seven I have seen multiple times. You just don't bug the wifey do what she asks make her feel comfortable and it goes away a few weeks to a month after birth. 'Depression' eleven months after the kid is born is hardly post partem, it's psychosis.

A psycho has no empathy for others, only self-interest.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I have never worked with a client who murdered a child. I've seen some terrible things done by parents, but nothing on the magnatude of this. Of course, it's a little late for CPS at this point.

Yeah, we have moved beyond CPS at this point. I have dealth with parents who have abused thier little ones to the point of death and it is so hard to be civil and professional with them. You want to take them outside and throw them a beating. Its a bit off topic, but I will relay a story to you:

I was a new nurse in the PICU. one night a cute little 5 year old came into the PICU. Intubated and if you looked at her, nothing apeared wrong. Nothing that is untill you felt the back of her head which was mush. The boyfriend had thrown her into a wall and hit the back of her hear into a stud on the opposite apartment wall. The white stuff in her hair was drywall. The cop that took the pictures at the scene told us of the hole with bits of hair still stuck in it.

Anyway to make a long story short, the girl mercifully died a few hours later. Right before she went, the Social Worker asked me to update a person on the phone. I did, and gave the phone back to the SW. Turns out the person i had spoken with was a Circut Court Judge. The actualy father was in lockdown at Pelican Bay Super Max Prison and a court order was required to get him to a phone. Pelican Bay houses the worst of the worst and I have no doubt that that man traded a pack of smokes and had this guy killed down the road for what he did to this little girl. There is justice sometimes if you look hard enough.

Sorry for going off topic.

I guess thats why the world has diverse types of people, unfortunately your story is an everyday reality, I could not do your job without being Nurse and Jury to help bring closure for family victims right at the scene, probably why I'm not a cop either, although your trained to emotionally deal with it, I'm sure another piece breaks off every time you see it.

I dont want to get off in another story but I think a small adjustment in our judicial system could use this story as a good starting point.

A USAF retiree just the other night was telling me stories about his before during and after Vietnam, the subject turned to the justice system in one of the north african countries he viseted and was interested in why the the rported crime rate was so low compared to most other nations. When he seen two men walking down the street neither one had a right hand he suggested to his partner that already been stationed at the base over a year that they must have been in a war, his partner said no, that is the punishment for stealing in that country ( an insult because you are forced to eat with the same hand you wipe with ) The slang was limb justice but was quite efficient on keeping down the crime rate. I guess I dont have to tell you what you lose for "raping someone" or being a "peeping tom"! I believe if someone is guilty beyond a resonable doubt this could be a very effective detourant generating very swift results. Its unfortunate that in this country you are not guilty by proof but guilty by account balance.

This is really messed up. i don't even know what to say, this is just too horrible.

If she was truly under PPD, then when she returns back to normal i would think that she would either kill herself or go into a truly deep depresion. i can't think that this woman could ever live a normal life again. What if this woman ever tries to have another child again?.... I don't even know what is going through the mind of the husband, or her if it is true she was under PPD and comes out of it.... i just know I wouldn't want to be the husband at this time..



[edit on 23-11-2004 by Muaddib]

There is never an excuse for any sort of behavior like this. I honestly think that this woman should not be able to get the insanity cop-out under any circumstances. AT ALL.

As to what you said earlier, Grady,

I see no correlation between this and any possible laws regarding the legalization of infanticide...sorry, but I just don't see it happening...I think you're probably exaggerating..:/

As for the woman, I hope that she's square with whatever diety she likes, because this is probably one of the more heinous things you can do to somebody...I mean...cutting the arms off your baby?

My mind refuses to compute that. I just can't do it.