Minimum Wage: How rich is your country?

Minimum Wage makes sense as what it started as, minimum wage. A minimum bar set to give a clear legal course of action to the sweat shop lords and the barons running warehouses full of children on sewing machines or other fine motor skilled jobs kids train so well for ...while robbing them of any childhood. Min. Wage at least said 'THIS low...NO lower..no matter WHAT they do for work". That made sense as a necessary reform of a booming nation and, overall, world.

Minimum Wage wasn't supposed to be a rising safety net to assure everyone 'comfortable' or 'living wages' from the lowest skill, lowest ability jobs our nation has to offer a person for a starting place in the working world. That is how it's warping now, but that's also why so many, like me, are coming to fight what (in moderation) is a necessary and POSITIVE thing but becomes another ugly thing to play games with in the hands of politicians, when used as a solution to anything but outright exploitation (In the sense it existed as a REAL thing when these laws were first brought).

My two carrots.

reply to post by oblvion


Exactly

40 hour a week should equal basic food, shelter and clothing.

Otherwise whats the point of working if you CANT FREAKING SURVIVE!

oblvion

For instance a car repair place charging $180 an hour in labor, and paying the mechanic doing all the actual work $18 an hour, this is stupidity at its finest, and business 101.

Pay nothing take everything. That is the American business model.

You are clueless, honestly. The average billable hour cost for car repair is more like $70 to $125 per hour, but that's besides the point. The same math I applied on the restaurant above will happen with the Auto Repair shop. A shop that doesn't charge appropriate rates will find itself out of business in short order. I personally have know 3 auto shop owners who went out of buisness by pricing themselves cheaply. Two of them were AWESOME mechanics, just lousy businesspeople. It wasn't their service nor them charging high fees that did them in, it was pricing themselves far too low to make a business thrive.

I have a automotive painter friend of mine.....he just made $123,000 doing what he does, he's good and his salary reflects his skill level. He's just a worker, not an owner. I know a lot of GOOD mechanics and the like who pull very good income from their "slave" labor as well. The only way they make that is by the product being priced accordingly to cover those labor costs. I assure you their companies profit margins are extremely tight.

reply to post by crazyewok


40 true working hours SHOULD....

The problem comes in very fast when people demand that 40 hour week purchasing power and standard of living on part time or less for levels of effort put out to earn it.

Min. Wage in Missouri comes to $294 and change for a 40 hour work week. My base Mortgage is $490 for a 3bd + in a solid middle class neighborhood. As an entry level job pays minimum wage? I can live fairly well ...albeit with a very basic standard of living ...on 40 hours at that wage. Federally raising mine here will blow the local economy to hell and back for some of the levels they've dreamed up. Perhaps in other areas, $294 a week barely pays the commute and parking bills, much less day care or lunches.

It varies..and why 50 DIFFERENT states are such a good idea to form a Union from, eh?

crazyewok
reply to post by oblvion

 

Exactly

40 hour a week should equal basic food, shelter and clothing.

Otherwise whats the point of working if you CANT FREAKING SURVIVE!

40 hours, regardless of the job, skill level of employee????

Does everyone get the same EQUAL clothing, food and shelter, regardless of their pay level?

Hmmmmmmm, where have I heard that before????

I don't know where and when it happened, but minimum wage jobs were for kids just starting out. I had a paper route in 5th through 8th grade, now 45 year old men have paper routes. My kids will never have the joy of getting up 3 hours prior to school, 7 days a week to get their routes done. They have missed out on that work ethic, try as I may to instill it.

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71


That's why much of those things need to be untied from employment, pay workers the 18$/hour and shift the purchasing power for pension plans/health insurance to the employee and let them decide how to spend their earnings.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by crazyewok

 

40 true working hours SHOULD....

The problem comes in very fast when people demand that 40 hour week purchasing power and standard of living on part time or less for levels of effort put out to earn it.

Min. Wage in Missouri comes to $294 and change for a 40 hour work week. My base Mortgage is $490 for a 3bd + in a solid middle class neighborhood. As an entry level job pays minimum wage? I can live fairly well ...albeit with a very basic standard of living ...on 40 hours at that wage. Federally raising mine here will blow the local economy to hell and back for some of the levels they've dreamed up. Perhaps in other areas, $294 a week barely pays the commute and parking bills, much less day care or lunches.

It varies..and why 50 DIFFERENT states are such a good idea to form a Union from, eh?

Well as i said 40 hours should. Part time is part time and shouldnt merit the same rewards.

And i yeah for a country as large and varied as the usa minimum wage needs to be a state issue. What flys in new york wont work in Alabama and vice versa. Be like the EU forceing a standard mimimum wage.

crazyewok
What flies in New York wont work in Alabama and vice versa. Be like the EU forcing a standard minimum wage.

Too true. When I rotate back into the US, I fully expect a shock to my standard of living. Since my return assignment will likely land me in DC, I've already prepared my retirement packet. If I don't retire, my entire savings is at risk of being depleted. There are many variables one must consider during the course of their employment ... and minimum wage shouldn't be one of them. That is a bar set too low, IMVHO.

Something else to consider on this which I really want to add. People won't like it, but I don't really care. The truth hurts and sometimes, pain equals gain, so deal with it if it hurts. You may be one needing to reconsider your contribution to the problem.

Example #1. In trucking, rates were deregulated a couple decades ago. Prior to that, the rate to move xx lbs of freight over xx miles of distance had charts to refer to and formulas to work out for a total that outsiders could come to and rely on. (This is the super fast 101 version). After deregulation, every company negotiated their own contracts and their own rates with customers. This lead to some making bank and they still do with dollars per mile frieght rates in specialized and niche areas. Where they earn it, they get paid that. The vast majority run around $1/mile before the always varying fuel surcharges...or at least did when I got off the road. Some....charged well below that. Predatory pricing and very similar to how Walmart runs business out of a town with prices "TOO LOW" to sustain but effective for taking market share by force.

We can either blame the US Government for deregulation and returning that sector of the economy to market based forces (kinda..for awhile...that hasn't remained clean by any means) or we can blame those who willingly and knowingly screwed the rest of the industry for their own short-long term gains and plans. If everyone worked together, deregulation would have worked..well! Personal greed over collective benefit to all involved had places like JB Hunt under-screwing everyone else tho...which depressed *ALL* freight rates for the whole of the trucking industry. (Companies like Swift came later to turn JB Hunts model into a full blown art form).


Example 2. Here locally, its $7.35 for min. wage. You do have to work a little to find someone actually paying that rate tho. Why? It's bottom of the barrel and it could be $75 an hour..wouldn't matter. It's still "the bottom" and everyone knows that's the bottom. No one wants to feel THEY are "the bottom" so employers here, anyway, have learned to increase that unless it's impossible to do. They can FILL $7.35 jobs...but they won't have the same people long and the people they get are those who don't mind "the bottom".

Now if everyone went and filled every last $7.35 job as quick as it opened, no waiting and no hassles for good people? MORE jobs would drop to that level, as no more need be paid to get skill at the level needed. That, naturally DOES NOT happen in most lines of work and a pay competitive to what equally skilled people can get elsewhere results...JUST to hire the person desired, not a warm body technically functional.

......Hence, for those who hate low wages the most? It's a VERY accurate statement and really economics 101...to say the bottom remains the bottom only as long as people are willing to start there by their own choosing and value they place on their own time and work. When that changes (as it largely always has been in this region) and people with more than entry level skill simply won't take bottom wages? Wages will...and have here....risen.

The true bottom 'entry level' - NO skill jobs are what one usually finds at the legal base amount here.

Final example here..... I'd doing a tutor thing for the school I attend, to be fairly general on all this. They have kids doing this SAME POSITION under Federal Student Aid/Work Study at the Federally Mandated min. wage. (The feds don't give a damn penny more ...and ought to be the ones explaining THAT little issue, I'd say). Same work....same office....same job. Due to the fact I'm not working this through Work Study? I'm paid $9. It's not particularly skilled, as it happens, but it's a job they needed filled with a skill set, not a warm body .....and they paid for it before even asking for takers to hire on.

Min Wage needs to be the min to avoid legally defined exploitation ...and people make what they can or want to make of it from there, while learning to become better at something to quickly advance and make more than the bottom.

pavil
40 hours, regardless of the job, skill level of employee????
Does everyone get the same EQUAL clothing, food and shelter, regardless of their pay level?

I NEVER FREAKING SAID THAT IF YOU BOTHERED TO LEARN HOW TO FREAKING READ!

I meant that a 40 hour job should give you (PAY) the basics to SURVIVE.

If its doesn’t give (PAY) you the basics to LIVE what’s the point of working full time? (A queation you failed to anwser)
You may as well stay at home on welfare!
And if there no welfare to fall on or top your wages up then again what’s the point?
Cause you have two options?
Go to work and slave away and still die because you don’t have enough to live?
Or stay at home and die because you don’t have enough to live?

Wow I can see what most people will choose? Why work for nothing when you can just stay at home and get nothing.

I’m saying FULL time work should pay the basics without having the TAX PAYER top it up. What’s the point of working if the tax payer has to top it up anyway? May as well pay your employees slightly more and take the tax break due to the money saved from welfare bills right?

Note the word BASICS

If you want more than that’s were higher wages due to working hard, qualifications and experience comes in.

pavil
I don't know where and when it happened, but minimum wage jobs were for kids just starting out. I had a paper route in 5th through 8th grade, now 45 year old men have paper routes. My kids will never have the joy of getting up 3 hours prior to school, 7 days a week to get their routes done. They have missed out on that work ethic, try as I may to instill it.

WOW GEE AGAIN WITH THE DAMED FREAKING NOT READING!!!

If you noticed I was referring to FULL time work. NOT part time kiddy work.


And if I sound Pee'd off I am as I fed up of people not reading and quoting something completely different to what I say.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I don’t know how the recession affected the USA.

But you have a point. Example 2 is a good example of pre 2007 UK.

The crappy minimum jobs were the school and college leaving basic jobs. One would only spend a few months to a year in such jobs before moving on to something better.

We all did our stint in supermarkets and burger stands for F all while doing our degrees and apprentiships. That was life and we got on with it then when we got our degree ect we would leave those jobs and start in a company on just as much a crap wage fetching the coffee and tea but with the knowledge that in a few months or a year we would get a pay rise to something abit more worthwhile and that worked.

Then the recession hit.....

All of a sudden millions found themselves out of work through no fault of their own. People with family’s to feed. It completely messed up the labour pool. As with a labour glut well paying jobs you can live on became as rare as gold . Entry level jobs all but disappeared and companies could pay sweet F all for even the lower non entry jobs IE the jobs just above getting the tea and coffee. You now have 45 years olds working in supermarkets and fast food outlets and you have a glut of experienced worker competing for the few scraps of real jobs. Youth can’t even get a look in anymore and people who originally had good jobs and got a mortgage and family now find themselves trying to support themselves on jobs reserved for acne faced teens. Its all out of wack.

I live in the Netherlands, and although our minimum wage isn't low, I've got some comments.

Ever since the Euro was introduced changing a Guilder for a Euro that's started out being worth 2.20 guilder.

All prices that we use to pay in Guilders, basically only changed the F 1.00,- into an € 1,00,-
Almost everything got more F 1.20,- more expensive.
Taxes have been raised for food from 6 % to 9 % and any other product has been raised from 19 % to 21 %.
The crisis caused the government to freeze the yearly raise, that was coupled with the amount of inflation for years.
Inflation has been happening anyway.

Health care started out with a price you pay for your insurance, and the first year, we got tax money in return. € 255,- I believe.
The second year they ended the tax return. The third year we had to pay extra even, called a personal amount of cost, for the first care you needed. It's now 2014 and we get a tax return based on our income of maximal € 72,- for the lowest incomes, while our insurance fee has been raised to € 115,75- in my case. I still have to pay the first € 350,- myself.

Gasoline, Diesel and Gas have all been raised with special taxes called accijns. One liter of gasoline is now around € 1,70-
An increase of € 30,00- for a full tank for my own car. Accijns on Tobacco and alcohol are also raised. Where a pack of shag of 50 grams once costed F 5 guilder, the cheapest you find now is around € 7 Euro,-

Taxes on nuts companies, and house owners have also been raised.

Basically we can buy half a grocery car filled with groceries, where we could fill it all the way up with a hump on top, within a decade.

Countless of people lost their jobs the last couple of years, and a 100 men are wanting that same job. It is hard to get a job, let alone one with a secure future.

Our minimal wage might look high, it has been losing half of it's worth within a decade.

SearchLightsInc
Also, the UK minimum wage has never risen above inflation since its introduction in the late 90's - That is a conspiracy in itself in my eyes.

It has - between 2000 and 2009 it was well ahead of the CPI.

As for minimum wage itself, while it is a nice idea, it can also have an adverse affect on the wider economy by pushing up costs, therefore prices, which then in turn make the minimum wage worth less and even drive inflation, which also drives all wage increases becoming a self feeding cycle.

In a genuinely free market, there should be no need for a minimum wage job because if people don't pay enough, no one will work for them. By putting a minimum in, you can have an effect like putting a ceiling on tuition fees for example, everyone rushes up to (or down to) the bar.

reply to post by crazyewok

Then the recession hit.....

I think the critical thing needs to be a focus on why we got into it (some VERY uncomfy things for people still in power right now, world wide), what it will take to get out of an artificially created crisis (see above about world leaders) and get busy with it.

What they're doing with Min. Wage is what they always do. Oil that squeaky wheel which the public forms by putting some more grease in the faulty bearings...so it'll/they'll hold and shut up a bit longer. The wheel is going to fall right off and risk the life of the driver when it happens ...but taking the car in to FIX it, costs too much, they tell us...can't be done, they insist.

So it's off to design better bandaids and pain pills rather than any cure...so we, the patients, can at least smile as we die (figuratively) together. This is hospice care, as we cry for world class specialists to help.

All things being equal, I want a cure...not a band-aid that ultimately makes the disease grow darker and more hopeless.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


No i agree things like this are just band aids.

Unfortunatly those band aids can be the diffrence to some unfortunate sod being able to feed his family or not Pull that band aid off now and alot who got hit with the recession go under while the bankers and politicians that caused it dont feel it.

If min wage is to go then at the very least unemployment needs slashing first. Otherwise you get
A) people fighting over jobs paying pathic wages, knowing the govment will have to top the wages up with tax money
Or without welfare
B) alot of dead and dyinh people going with without food while the economy corrects itself. And again it wont be the ones tjat caused the reccesion that do the suffering.

reply to post by pavil

In your example, let's assume it's a restaurant.

Great example sir.

One thing I will add though. Once larger chains/franchises alter their operating procedures, develop their own supply chains etc, and spring up on every street corner, it gets harder for anyone to compete.

Kenny's Burgers opens up in a town with 12 McDonalds.

Now, McDonalds makes millions of buns, patties, etc for all their locations. They sell the products to each location, and because they have large processing facilities, and purchasing power to buy in huge bulk, they can do this way below what Kenny's burgers can. McDs control systems, operating procedures, etc, allow them to take advantage of high turnover, and toss in any scmuck as soon as someone quits.

The best chance kenny's burgers has is offering up a better customer experience. Buying better quality meat, and marketing its superior quality.

This may involve paying higher rates for employees. Or having gratuities.

one of the most effective labor strikes anywhere in the world has been those of garbage collectors. the wealthiest people in any country where they live, cannot live without their garbage being taken away. the rotting stench, coupled with the vermin, disease, insect infestations bring the billionaires to their knees real fast. I remember one garbage strike in New York, in downtown Manhattan, where the garbage was stacked 10 feet high around all the posh entry-ways to those multi-million dollar central park apartments...shocker!...that strike ended really fast.

reply to post by Snarl


The portion of my post you quoted and disagree with is a fact. At the turn of the century "robber barons"-

In social criticism and economic literature, Robber barons became a derogatory term applied to wealthy and powerful 19th-century American businessmen that appeared in North American periodical literature as early as the August 1870 issue of The Atlantic Monthly[1] magazine. By the late 1800s, the term was typically applied to businessmen who used what were considered to be exploitative practices to amass their wealth.[2] These practices included exerting control over national resources, accruing high levels of government influence, paying extremely low wages, squashing competition by acquiring competitors in order to create monopolies and eventually raise prices, and schemes to sell stock at inflated prices[2] to unsuspecting investors in a manner which would eventually destroy the company for which the stock was issued and impoverish investors.[2] The term combines the sense of criminal ("robber") and illegitimate aristocracy (a baron is an illegitimate role in a republic)

en.wikipedia.org...(industrialist)

The movement for a minimum wage was initially targeted at stopping sweatshop labour.

en.wikipedia.org...

As was stated in my quoted passage, there were "capitalists" that were wreaking havoc on the working class, therefore laws were implemented to put a stop to these abusive tactics.

In todays world there are once again companies that are gaming the system. This time though it is the welfare system they are gaming. Using basically the same "evil" in my opinion tactics that caused the need of minimum wage laws and overtime laws in the first place.

If there was not welfare they would all be paying enough for their workers to support themselves, or they wouldnt exist.

Instead they are reaping super high profits by not paying their workers well as they could and should, in essence, the tax payers are writing them a giant check every year they are sticking in their pockets.

If not for human greed there would not need to be minimum wage laws or overtime laws, without these laws the entire economy would be much different.

I actually think there should be no minimum wage, as everytime they raise it it doesnt raise anyone out of poverty, instead it raises the poverty level to now encompass those formerly above it, basically just making more poor people.

As far as it being personal, over the last year I have been working a crap job, so yes in my current situation it is personal, however I have been making alot more than I am now my entire life, and will again soon hopefully, but I have been saying these things for years. As I have watched this slow motion car wreck unfolding all around me since I was a child.

oblvion

SearchLightsInc
Im pretty sure the minimum wage was introduced to give all people a basic standard so that you dont go without food, shelter, warmth and water. It has for many years been abused by big business, who CAN afford to pay their employee's more, but choose not to. Also, the UK minimum wage has never risen above inflation since its introduction in the late 90's - That is a conspiracy in itself in my eyes.

With more people with degree's and no job's for graduates, everyone's wages are just being grinded down. Its like capitialism's own twisted version of socialism.

And now for the "You dont deserve to make more than minimum wage" in 3.........2.......1.........

I will flame war with all of the idiots who say "that job is entry level" or "that job is low skill" etc..... If a man works 40 hours a week anywhere in the U.S. he deserves to be able to feed himself and his family, I dont care what job he has.

Anything less is slave labor at best, and anyone who thinks 40 hours of work shouldnt equal food and shelter is a parasite that simply feeds off the blood sweat and tears of humanity as a whole.

You are a poster i can respect, i salute you!

jimmyx
one of the most effective labor strikes anywhere in the world has been those of garbage collectors. the wealthiest people in any country where they live, cannot live without their garbage being taken away. the rotting stench, coupled with the vermin, disease, insect infestations bring the billionaires to their knees real fast. I remember one garbage strike in New York, in downtown Manhattan, where the garbage was stacked 10 feet high around all the posh entry-ways to those multi-million dollar central park apartments...shocker!...that strike ended really fast.

So true.