How We are Nihilists

reply to post by ImaFungi


Tough questions. Yes I don't think there will be any objective meaning or purpose without mankind, and if there is, it can never be known.

I don't think there is an objective truth, as knowledge and truth are purely human affairs. There's no way we can have an objective truth without the subject, or the subjective point of view, and I believe there is no separation between objective and subjective realities, as perspective relies on the subject/object relationship.

I think truth is a quest for reconciliation between the subject/object relationship. It is a quest for a 1 to 1 ratio, but a destination that will never be reached.

I'm going to ruminate over your questions a little longer, and hopefully formulate a better response.

Aphorism
I think giving purpose and meaning to live is our purpose.

In my opinion it is to see the beauty of life.
A work of art has no real purpose or meaning but can make the heart sing and dance.

reply to post by BDBinc

I am not a baby or a nihilist, you called me a nihilist you said everyone is a nihilist.
Everyone is not a baby( but ' everyone' includes babies ) as I am not a nihilist your claim about "everyone" being a nihilist is false.

Well I'm just wondering what meaning and purpose you saw in life when you were born. If you saw no meaning or purpose, then it is safe to say that all subsequent experiences are built from the soil of your first experience, and maybe even a reaction to it. Therefor, nihilism, the existential crisis, the groundless abyss of thought that underlines all human knowledge, is more fundamental than our truths.

I don't think you hold the nihilistic view, but I think that your views (and everyone's) are merely a costume for it, sort of a sweeping it under the carpet.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

In my opinion it is to see the beauty of life.
A work of art has no real purpose or meaning but can make the heart sing and dance.

Absolutely. We can have a hand in this art, and not merely be a fixture within it.

Aphorism
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Tough questions. Yes I don't think there will be any objective meaning or purpose without mankind, and if there is, it can never be known.

I don't think there is an objective truth, as knowledge and truth are purely human affairs. There's no way we can have an objective truth without the subject, or the subjective point of view, and I believe there is no separation between objective and subjective realities, as perspective relies on the subject/object relationship.

I think truth is a quest for reconciliation between the subject/object relationship. It is a quest for a 1 to 1 ratio, but a destination that will never be reached.

I'm going to ruminate over your questions a little longer, and hopefully formulate a better response.

Ok nice. We may be using different understandings of the term objective reality. I use it to mean, that which exists, nature, physical, objects. I believe we can know of objective truths perhaps not in their total comprehension but know of them, for example, I know that 'this apple' is not 'that rock' and if you dont believe me try eating them. I know that the sun is not a pink fluffy capri sun notebook, I know that the sun exists as something in someway, it is objective, Do you have any objections to the suns existence, it is hard or impossible to object its existence, because it quite evidently exists. If humans didnt exist reality, the somethingness that is, would still exist.

There are separation between objective and subjective realities. Subjectivity is a conscious experience of objectivity. Subjectivity can be wrong, and I personally have argued that perhaps subjectivity is only right when it is grasping the or at the objectivity. For example I may close my eyes and imagine dragons and fairies and put out my hands and say there are dragons and fairies all around us right now, and you say, no there is not, still closing my eyes I then may be imagining that what just spoke those words was a big blanket a million feet tall made of cheese thats doing funny dances. This is how subjectivity can be 'false'. The imagination/mind can create within itself things that dont objectively exist, or are not true. In short and in simple, a concious being can lie and/or be wrong; about judgements, thoughts, accurate collection of data etc. Objective reality, is truth, it is never wrong, it is tautologically as it is at all times. Whatever happens happens.

Now the idea of meaning is difficult, because I think where nihilism may have started from, is this logic that if all subjective meaning is equally valid, then it may as well be meaningless...or no? It is suggesting there is no meaning above us forcing our meanings to be right or wrong, there fore our meanings that we choose and decide upon ourselves are just feelings or opinions.

The easy and most accurate and probably relevant place to start is the binary of life, that being life and not life, life and death. Can existing as a self be the original most primal and valuable and necessary objective meaning, in where all other potential meanings follow from this. But there are more objective meanings that are given to us by our nature of being as human bodies on earth, food and water has inherent meaning to our existence, whether one subjectively thinks about it or ignores it or pretends like it is not meaningful, without this they do not exist, and existing as a human is necessary for a human to experience meaning.

From there I think I agree with your sentiments about how nature creates meaning through us, I believe we are then the tautological proofs of conceptual things like law and government and stuff. Like if everyone decided that murder was ok, no punishment everyone can murder anyone they want at any time, the world of human affairs and potentials that would come about from that would be very different then the world of human affairs that comes about when we exist with a society with laws. So our conceptual decisions, what we find valuable and meaningful, impact and forge the nature of human nature, and objective human existence.

But there is such nuance, for example I may find watching tv show x meaningful, I may find watching tv show y more meaningful, and z the least meaningful... and if there were 1000 tv shows I watched I could judge and compare them all, and if 1000 people were to do the same they may all get different comparisons. And this is just tv shows, there are morals, and behavior, sexuality, types of work, education, art, science, outlooks on self and life, foods, everything that humans do and can do can be subjectively judged and valued... but I believe the urge to call these judgements meaningless, derives from there being no ultimate judge, which I assume is what you meant by no objective truth in those conceptual terms. And which is why God, the ultimate judge is wanted to exist, to create order and meaning for them, to then follow to know they are doing the best.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Great points.

I agree with your sentiments in regards to objective reality. Self-evident truths are shared with a majority of people. But I think this might change according to the individual, for instance, a man born blind cannot see the sun, and relies on us explaining that there is one. He may sense its heat, but we would also be able to convince him that there is no sun, that there is instead a being in the sky holding a mighty ball of fire during certain times of the day. I don’t think he could land on any degree of certitude in its regard. Some even doubt the senses entirely, and can fall into extreme forms of skepticism (Descartes for instance).

And yes, there is no world text to refer when comparing our truths to reality. We cannot hope to turn over a stone and find answers to our deepest questions. This might be where the struggle of nihilism begins, the realization that our truths and our knowledge are human affairs, with no divinity to tell us whether we are operating correctly or not. We then might ask what’s the point?

I would see meaning as what we understand about reality—a very superficial outlook for sure. Smoke means fire etc. We see signs of something, and deduce from these signs a condensed version of what is occurring in our minds, whether right or wrong. When we see something as meaningful, we are expressing that we are able to make sense of our relationship with the other objects found within our perspective, and thus realizing the connection between ourselves and reality.

However, some need to be told, as you said, usually by some divine source of truth, perhaps even some sort of objectivity, what is meaningful, maybe what is important, rather than being able to value it or give it meaning on their own accord. That’s why I think religion is a reaction to nihilism, simply because finding intrinsic value in something is a difficult task.

I know I didn’t touch all your points, but there is much in them to ponder.

Aphorism
reply to post by BDBinc

 

I am not a baby or a nihilist, you called me a nihilist you said everyone is a nihilist.
Everyone is not a baby( but ' everyone' includes babies ) as I am not a nihilist your claim about "everyone" being a nihilist is false.

Well I'm just wondering what meaning and purpose you saw in life when you were born. If you saw no meaning or purpose, then it is safe to say that all subsequent experiences are built from the soil of your first experience, and maybe even a reaction to it. Therefor, nihilism, the existential crisis, the groundless abyss of thought that underlines all human knowledge, is more fundamental than our truths.

I don't think you hold the nihilistic view, but I think that your views (and everyone's) are merely a costume for it, sort of a sweeping it under the carpet.

So now you agree you were wrong and I am not" a nihilist".
You didn't don't know (or care to know) my world views but in your ignorance declare my world views[that you don't know of] are a just costume for nihilism.
Oh dear.
Nihilism is not the abyss of thought that underlines all human knowledge and nihilism is not more fundamental than truth.
What are you now talking about "the soil of your first experience" ? Why imagine and make such assumptions?
You do not know how/if you 'reacted' to your first breath .
If anything is "the soil of my experience" it would be the breath.
Feeling and seeing purpose and meaning in my life is not a costume for nihilism.

You feel like you are having a existential crisis?

reply to post by BDBinc

So now you agree you were wrong and I am not" a nihilist".
You didn't don't know (or care to know) my world views but in your ignorance declare my world views[that you don't know of] are a just costume for nihilism.
Oh dear.
Nihilism is not the abyss of thought that underlines all human knowledge and nihilism is not more fundamental than truth.
What are you now talking about "the soil of your first experience" ? Why imagine and make such assumptions?
You do not know how/if you 'reacted' to your first breath .
If anything is "the soil of my experience" it would be the breath.
Feeling and seeing purpose and meaning in my life is not a costume for nihilism.

You feel like you are having a existential crisis?

Yes I'm speculating. That is the nature of philosophy. If you have a problem with that then simply quit taking part in it. Go do something else. Your petty knee-jerk anger towards my views, and your "oh dears", does not invalidate my arguments. But keep it up because it is quite amusing.

I agree you don't hold the view of a nihilist, but that you hold other views in order to escape it.

Your only argument is "No", that I'm wrong, but fail to show any reasoning. This is only denial and nothing more.

The fact that you have no memory of your birth, and the fact that there is no meaning brought in from the last one into this one, proves quite reasonably that you saw no meaning in the world upon your birth, no purpose, and that your first view of the world was that of a nihilist, without any connection to any acquired worldview. You transitioned from a uterine existence, attached by an umbilical cord, to a different sort of existence, everything taken from you, disconnected, with no sense of meaning or purpose. It was only until later were you able to make sense of anything. All meaning was acquired after that event.

So I'll ask once again, and if you evade the answer as you've been doing all along, it shows you are either incapable or unwilling to answer, and you can go about throwing a hissy fit at what I think as you often do, and I'll just laugh and stop give up on wasting my time. I can only assume that you are capable of having a conversation.

What meaning and purpose in the world did you see when you were born?

Aphorism
reply to post by BDBinc

 

So now you agree you were wrong and I am not" a nihilist".
You didn't don't know (or care to know) my world views but in your ignorance declare my world views[that you don't know of] are a just costume for nihilism.
Oh dear.
Nihilism is not the abyss of thought that underlines all human knowledge and nihilism is not more fundamental than truth.
What are you now talking about "the soil of your first experience" ? Why imagine and make such assumptions?
You do not know how/if you 'reacted' to your first breath .
If anything is "the soil of my experience" it would be the breath.
Feeling and seeing purpose and meaning in my life is not a costume for nihilism.

You feel like you are having a existential crisis?

Yes I'm speculating. That is the nature of philosophy. If you have a problem with that then simply quit taking part in it. Go do something else. Your petty knee-jerk anger towards my views, and your "oh dears", does not invalidate my arguments. But keep it up because it is quite amusing.

I agree you don't hold the view of a nihilist, but that you hold other views in order to escape it.

Your only argument is "No", that I'm wrong, but fail to show any reasoning. This is only denial and nothing more.

The fact that you have no memory of your birth, and the fact that there is no meaning brought in from the last one into this one, proves quite reasonably that you saw no meaning in the world upon your birth, no purpose, and that your first view of the world was that of a nihilist, without any connection to any acquired worldview. You transitioned from a uterine existence, attached by an umbilical cord, to a different sort of existence, everything taken from you, disconnected, with no sense of meaning or purpose. It was only until later were you able to make sense of anything. All meaning was acquired after that event.

So I'll ask once again, and if you evade the answer as you've been doing all along, it shows you are either incapable or unwilling to answer, and you can go about throwing a hissy fit at what I think as you often do, and I'll just laugh and stop give up on wasting my time. I can only assume that you are capable of having a conversation.

What meaning and purpose in the world did you see when you were born?

Yes I agree you are just speculating when you project your opinion on everyone.
Speculating that everyone's world view is like yours, and because you label yourself as in denial and crisis [when you remain ignorant of 'everyone's' world view] is not using reasoning.
Just, because you are having a crisis, are in denial , think you are using a world view as a costume for nihilism want to project nihilism crisis and denial onto EVERYONE.
I am not angry or having hissy fits ...are you?
If you read the thread you haven't answered my questions.

So now when you speculating about rebirth why would you speculate that you are reborn over and over without any [unconscious] memory ? Why then do some people say they can remember birth and past lives.
Its all a big bag of speculation. You cannot speak for everyone[or everyone's babies] just yourself in denial, crisis and nihilism.

reply to post by BDBinc

Its all a big bag of speculation. You cannot speak for everyone[or everyone's babies] just yourself in denial, crisis and nihilism.

You refuse the question I've asked plenty of times. Just as I expected, but I wonder why? Maybe because you are unable to answer the question, or maybe it is because you fear it.

I've moved beyond my nihilistic crisis long ago. I don't deny it.

You on the other hand?

Aphorism
reply to post by BDBinc

 

Its all a big bag of speculation. You cannot speak for everyone[or everyone's babies] just yourself in denial, crisis and nihilism.

You refuse the question I've asked plenty of times. Just as I expected, but I wonder why? Maybe because you are unable to answer the question, or maybe it is because you fear it.

I've moved beyond my nihilistic crisis long ago. I don't deny it.

You on the other hand?

Who is having the nihilistic crisis you talk about? Are you now telling me I am having a nihilist crisis just because you had one a long time ago? Where did you move to.
You didn't answer my questions.
I am part of "everyone" that you claim are nihilists and yet I am not a nihilist.
You did not care to ask babies what their world view is before claiming they also are nihilist.
That answers your question and makes my point.
I am not a nihilist.

reply to post by BDBinc

Who is having the nihilistic crisis you talk about? Are you now telling me I am having a nihilist crisis just because you had one a long time ago? Where did you move to.

No I'm saying you hide from your nihilism, as I've said in the OP many times. Where did you move to?

You didn't answer my questions.

Sorry but your questions had nothing to do with anything besides your evasion of my question.

I am part of "everyone" that you claim are nihilists and yet I am not a nihilist.
You did not care to ask babies what their world view is before claiming they also are nihilist.
That answers your question and makes my point.
I am not a nihilist.

Just saying "I am not a nihilist" doesn't make me wrong. That doesn't even touch my question. It doesn't even make a point. I could just as easily say you are a nihilist, and I have.

You didn't care to ask babies what their worldview is either. So you saying I am wrong is just as speculative as me saying they are born nihilists. If you cannot handle my arguments, and only deny them (denial), it means you are without argument. Even now you cannot answer my question.

What purpose or meaning did you see in the world at your birth? You tried to say "your first breath" was meaningful, but you only figured this out many years after the fact, in hindsight only, and not when you were born.

So please, show me how you saw meaning and purpose in everything when you were born. If you cannot, then despite your denial, I'll take it as an admission that I am correct.

Aphorism
reply to post by BDBinc

 

Who is having the nihilistic crisis you talk about? Are you now telling me I am having a nihilist crisis just because you had one a long time ago? Where did you move to.

No I'm saying you hide from your nihilism, as I've said in the OP many times. Where did you move to?

You didn't answer my questions.

Sorry but your questions had nothing to do with anything besides your evasion of my question.

I am part of "everyone" that you claim are nihilists and yet I am not a nihilist.
You did not care to ask babies what their world view is before claiming they also are nihilist.
That answers your question and makes my point.
I am not a nihilist.

Just saying "I am not a nihilist" doesn't make me wrong. That doesn't even touch my question. It doesn't even make a point. I could just as easily say you are a nihilist, and I have.

You didn't care to ask babies what their worldview is either. So you saying I am wrong is just as speculative as me saying they are born nihilists. If you cannot handle my arguments, and only deny them (denial), it means you are without argument. Even now you cannot answer my question.

What purpose or meaning did you see in the world at your birth? You tried to say "your first breath" was meaningful, but you only figured this out many years after the fact, in hindsight only, and not when you were born.

So please, show me how you saw meaning and purpose in everything when you were born. If you cannot, then despite your denial, I'll take it as an admission that I am correct.

edit on 20-2-2014 by Aphorism because: (no reason given)

Wow, despite my admission that the world has purpose and meaning to me you will insist on taking the opposite of everything I say so that "EVERYONE"[and everyone's babies] in your mind can be a nihilist. You don't have to provide any support for your unfounded claims .
Its like taking candy from a baby.

reply to post by BDBinc

Wow, despite my admission that the world has purpose and meaning to me you will insist on taking the opposite of everything I say so that "EVERYONE"[and everyone's babies] in your mind can be a nihilist. You don't have to provide any support for your unfounded claims .
Its like taking candy from a baby.

I've provided all arguments in the OP, none of which you will address. I will guess you probably haven't even read it as per usual. Just as I expected, refusal to answer the question, which is, in my mind, an admission of ignorance or a fear of being proven wrong.

You've taken nothing.

Aphorism

You've taken nothing.

Yes thats right I've taken nothing.

Your words seek to explain the first experience of all newborns, an odd thing to do as it is one subjective experience that you cannot remember but you say it was meaningless for you and that is why you forgot it .
You said "For us, it was an experience so meaningless that we don’t even remember it. But the trauma of that experience still remains as the soil from which every subsequent experience would follow, growing as a fundamental fear of that moment—nihilism"

Who is fearful?
Don't fear the moment.
One moment of joy can negate a lifetime of pain.

reply to post by Aphorism


Nobody would write a carefully-crafted 845-word essay unless they felt that the subject was worth something, and other people’s opinions about themselves were worth something to them too. You disprove your thesis by making it in the first place.

Astyanax
reply to post by Aphorism

 

Nobody would write a carefully-crafted 845-word essay unless they felt that the subject was worth something, and other people’s opinions about themselves were worth something to them too. You disprove your thesis by making it in the first place.

edit on 21/2/14 by Astyanax because: of low-flying monkeys.

Thanks for reading.

I mentioned nihilism had some worth as a transition. But I have yet to be convinced of any other opinion. I suppose the sad part is is that I'm actually easily convinced.

What is yours?

reply to post by BDBinc


I cannot deny that. I can only speak for myself. So I appreciate you taking the time to try to speak for me.

Aphorism
reply to post by BDBinc

 

I cannot deny that. I can only speak for myself. So I appreciate you taking the time to try to speak for me.

Try only speaking for yourself then.

Aphorism For us, it was an experience so meaningless that we don’t even remember it.

Your speech was "For us" and "We" using the word "everyone" that certainly was not speaking for yourself, it is projecting your opinions onto "everyone".
Thank you for appreciating the correction, for as far you describing everyone's subjective experience and world views as meaningless and purposeless - a royal we was out of place.