there must be something outside of the universe!!!

reply to post by Blue Shift


You dont understand you cant have space expanding at different locations and still end up with a curved universe. See our universe space is expanding not all all points. Like in our galaxy for example no expansion locally. In fact andromeda is heading right for us if space were expanding locally that would never have happened. Its expanding in areas faster than others and in multiple places you cant maintain a geometric structure with that kind of kaos.

dragonridr
reply to post by LightSource

 

Figure its easier to watch a video then have me tell you why we know the universe is flat to within 1 degree.

Well we live in a 3D world therefore our solar system is 3D as well which includes depth not something "flat". an "infinite" circle would appear to be "flat" if you were standing on it. Even if we where the size of our sun or even our own Milky Way galaxy it would appear "flat" if you were on top of it. I would also like to add because the universe is basically "infinite" you could never reach a size big enough to view the universe other than "flat" because you could never reach a size large enough to view it otherwise.

The only other possible conclusion would be that we are just a computer program given the sense of "depth" within the program.

reply to post by Jordan River

there must be something outside of the universe!!!

Ya the Real Universe !!


Scientist may now think we live in a simulated Universe aka Hologram Universe


just think of 3 movies Tron. Tron Legacy. The 13th Floor. for Laymans Terms

may very well be !

Wolfenz
reply to post by Jordan River

 

there must be something outside of the universe!!!

Ya the Real Universe !!


Scientist may now think we live in a simulated Universe aka Hologram Universe


just think of 3 movies Tron. Tron Legacy. The 13th Floor. for Laymans Terms

may very well be !

No one thinks were in a simulated universe while let me rephrase no scientists. The holographic universe and computer simulation were just nothing more then sci fi.

dragonridr

Wolfenz
reply to post by Jordan River

 

there must be something outside of the universe!!!

Ya the Real Universe !!


Scientist may now think we live in a simulated Universe aka Hologram Universe


just think of 3 movies Tron. Tron Legacy. The 13th Floor. for Laymans Terms

may very well be !

No one thinks were in a simulated universe while let me rephrase no scientists. The holographic universe and computer simulation were just nothing more then sci fi.

It is absolutely not Sci Fi, there is absolutely NO PROOF that we are not living in a simulation, and on top of that, living in a simulation that is a subset of a greater reality answers pretty much every question that can't be answered right now by science, including paranormal (which is actually normal once it's known...).

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

Lucid Lunacy
“The Universe is very, very big. It also loves a paradox. For example, it has some extremely strict rules.
Rule number one: Nothing lasts forever.
Not you or your family or your house or your planet or the sun. It is an absolute rule. Therefore when someone says that their love will never die, it means that their love is not real, for everything that is real dies.

Rule number two: Everything lasts forever.”
― Craig Ferguson

Rule number is a paradox. There is no such thing as nothing. So it can't last forever.
Rule number two is true. Everything does last forever. Me, my family, my house, my planet, my sun. It just changes from one form to another, forever.

reply to post by Jordan River


If you believe in evolution, then nothing matters. But if what you say is true then that is where God exists, in another dimension. And in all that the evolutionists STILL have blind more faith than Christians.

reply to post by dragonridr

Thanks, dragonridr, for your reply to my ramblings earlier. I especially liked your comments regarding the BB. Now, in my non-expert way, I’ll try to respond, and also ask a few questions to clear up some stuff for myself. In your reply to me you stated the following:

“It didnt occupy a smaller volume the thing that confuses people about the big bang is they think of iit as an expansion it wasnt space itself was created.Easiest way to explain is a a chocolate chip cookie in the oven.Space between those chips is created as it cooks. So to points in the early universe didnt go anywhere the space between then simple grew.This is why when we use the Cosmic Background Radiation we can figure out the distribution of mass in our universe or should i say energy that converted to mass. Stuff stayed where it was the space between it got bigger. Now physicists are not really questioning the big bang occurred there simply looking again at what we think happened. Here is what i mean the big bang was based off relativity well theirs others who think Quantum mechanics should be used instead.Which changes things slightly for example then zero point energy becomes involved and the matter in the universe wasnt infinitely dense and no singularity.Instead as space expands it releases energy we call vacuum energy. And this is what created everything we see.”

OK, I’m still a little confused about certain aspects of BB theory. As I understand it, current thinking roughly goes along these lines: The Planck era is thought to be the earliest period of “time”. Even today we’re unable to make predictions of events occuring at time intervals shorter than the Planck time (approx 10^-43 seconds). Anyway, during the Planck era the 4 known forces were merged into a single unified force. The universe at this time existed in a super hot, energetic, dense state; particles didn’t even exist as we know them. The Planck era was a very unstable time, and because of the immense energies involved, symmetry began to break, the forces began to seperate, and the era of cosmic inflation began. It lasted for a whole 10^–32 seconds, or so, during which time the 4 forces we know, as well as particles, began to manifest. Then, for the next 400,000 years or so the universe, while expanding, is basically a hot, thermal plasma of particles. It’s opaque during this period and, therefore, we can’t view it with optical telescopes. As it continues expanding and cooling; it finally cools off enough for charged particles to start pairing up and for photons to freely propogate, which we can now view as the CMB. Star and galaxy formation is now quite active, rapid and energetic. Blah, blah, blah...

I know I left A LOT out, but that’s my understandiung in a nutshell. Now, my questions/comments, dragonridr: Regarding the early universe, in your reply you said,

“It didnt occupy a smaller volume the thing that confuses people about the big bang is they think of iit as an expansion it wasnt space itself was created.”.

I understand that the BB can’t be imagined as an explosion, and that it didn’t expand into space, but rather created space. None the less, space, and therefore the universe, did expand and continues to do so. Right? I realize that the stuff occupying space now is no more or less than the stuff that occupied the original hot, dense, energetic blob (whatever it was). It’s simply manifesting/expressing itself differently with time. Maybe it’s just terminology, but what I think I was getting at is I have a hard time imagining such an inconceivably dense and energetic “singularity”. Doesn’t mean it’s not so; it just means I have a hard time getting my head around it :-(

Also, dragonridr, you said,

“Now physicists are not really questioning the big bang occurred there simply looking again at what we think happened”.

Tell me if I’m wrong, but as I understand it, until either a theory of quantum gravity is developed to replace relativistic gravity, we cannot truly understand the physics of the Planck era. Without quantum gravity it’s impossible to get a clear picture of how the forces were once unified, and then, once symmetry was borken, how the forces seperated and manifested into their present forms. Actually, if a quantum gravity theory is developed, the whole notion of the universe starting as a singularity of infinite density could come into question. As of now, I guess string theory or loop quantum gravity are the best candidates and our best hope. Seriously, does that sound half-way right?

And lastly (yeah, I know you’re all saying, “FINALLY”), I have a question about the quantum foam (zero-point field). To the best of my knowledge, even though zero-point enegry is theoretically infinite, there’s no evidence that it’s use would be in violation of conservation of energy. That’s ANOTHER thing I can’t seem to get my head around. If one day we learn how to harvest it for use in space propulsion systems, or whatever, how does it not violate COE?

Thanks for your patience...

reply to post by netbound


You say Yourself that we don't have any knowledge of what took Place prior to 10 -43 Seconds after the BB. How can any quantum theory ever figure out anything more?

Quantum physics is also the study of finite. Things that were formed after Planck Time. There is no science that will ever be able to figure out what caused the BB.

spy66
reply to post by netbound

 

You say Yourself that we don't have any knowledge of what took Place prior to 10 -43 Seconds after the BB. How can any quantum theory ever figure out anything more?

Quantum physics is also the study of finite. Things that were formed after Planck Time. There is no science that will ever be able to figure out what caused the BB.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

that depends on the true nature of the big bang. some scientists now say it was not a point like event but more of a smear. and in that case there will be at least traces of what was before the big bang. and the big bang would not be the beginning of time or out of nothingness. so at least potentially you could determine what happened before the big bang

reply to post by spy66

Hello, spy66. I see you're a nocturnal type, too.

If I gave the impression we have no ideas about what happened prior to 10^-43 seconds, then it was unintentional. We have plenty of ideas about what the conditions were like during that time period. I think you may be reffering to my comments regarding a quantum gravity theory, and how we can't truly understand the physics of the Planck era without a comprehensive quantum theory that includes gravity. I was trying to say that it's difficult to be clear about how the 4 forces were once merged as a single unified force, and then seperated into the 4 we know, until we have a quantized theory of gravity that's compatible with the other 3 forces.

As far as never knowing what happened prior to 10^-43 seconds, I have a feeling we definitely will come to know this and it will likely be soon. As far as what initiated the BB, and what came before it, I think in time that will come, as well...

This can be explained easily. The area outside the Universe is just like everything was "before" the Big Bang. The quotes mean that there wasn't time before the Big Bang, so there is not really "before the Big Bang" time. So outside the Universe is no space, nor time. Its nothingness, but its hard to imagine nothingness as human.

So the area around Universe is area, where Big Bang hasn't happened (yet). BUT The Universe keeps expanding to this nothingness until Universe cools too much. There is theories what happens when Universe has cooled down. Some say Universe will collapse, and some think that Universe slowly dies, when there is no new stars forming and black holes eat everything.

reply to post by Jordan River


As i kid i asked my dad almost everyday, 'What's outside of the Universe?'. Must have driven the poor guy nuts

Now i've had a few decades to think about it, here's what i've come up with:


What's outside of Everything ?

Nothing.

Because if it's Something, Anything, then it's a part of Everything.

This black & white understanding of reality is because we think in 4 dimensions, where everything has surface - an inside and an outside. Perhaps in higher dimensions Inside and Outside become moot concepts by the nature of that dimension...

Fleeting glimpses of the ripples from higher dimensions, where space isn't as black & white are the observations now made of quantum particles apparently teleporting - changing location without discernible cause, or so my own fleeting glimpses of this work would fathom.

If we could experience a higher dimension, or at least grow an understanding of why these quantum particles do not abide by our laws of Physics, then maybe we could comprehend a space that doesn't need edges - an Inside and Outside - a Universe who's inside and outside are the same side - it's all the same thing... ... ...

...See how i'm struggling - that's because my senses perceive only the 4th dimension and so i have no comprehension of higher, not the perspective necessary, let alone the words. But i can have faith in there being more if i choose to - if i have the humility to discus this rather than needing to answer it.

That's what those few decades since pestering my dad has giving me - a little humility. That's probably why my pestering with that question didn't drive him nuts - his own decades of life gave him the humility to know that he, as do we all, lack the perspective to answer that particular question.

Something else that becomes ever more tangible is this:

Since Time and Space are already observed to be linked in our own 4th dimension, then maybe they are more so in higher dimensions ?

So might Space without edges = Time without beginning or end...

Wonder what dad would make of that? Here's hoping i'm right and that someday he might be able to tell me

dragonridr

Wolfenz
reply to post by Jordan River

 

there must be something outside of the universe!!!

Ya the Real Universe !!


Scientist may now think we live in a simulated Universe aka Hologram Universe


just think of 3 movies Tron. Tron Legacy. The 13th Floor. for Laymans Terms

may very well be !

No one thinks were in a simulated universe while let me rephrase no scientists. The holographic universe and computer simulation were just nothing more then sci fi.

ramble aruge ramble etc... rESERCH mUCH ?

Aruge with these Legit Random selcted Sites or the Physist themselves good luck!!



Simulations back up theory that Universe is a hologram

A ten-dimensional theory of gravity makes the same predictions as standard quantum physics in fewer dimensions.

Ron Cowen

10 December 2013

www.nature.com...



Is The Universe A Computer Simulation? Physicist Martin Savage Explains (VIDEO)

Posted: 12/24/2012 11:16 am EST | Updated: 12/24/2012 11:16 am EST
www.huffingtonpost.com...

Are We Living Inside a Computer Simulation?
Dec 16, 2012 01:42 PM ET // by Ray Villard
news.discovery.com...



and here is a Debate Site about that !!

The Simulation Argument

Here you can peruse the debate that followed the paper presenting the simulation argument. The original paper is here, as are popular synopses, scholarly papers commenting or expanding on or critiquing the first paper, and some replies by the author.

The simulation argument continues to attract a great deal of attention. I apologize that I cannot usually respond to individual inquiries. I hope that you will find what you're looking for on this page.


Professor Nick Bostrom
Oxford University
www.nickbostrom.com

www.simulation-argument.com...

If you look at astral projection you'll find some thing to do with that.

But I thought the other day that atoms have nothing between the wall and the nucleus, so there is just space/nothing and we are floating in? Space.

Just a thought but then again what is thought?

Joe Rogan said that if you look at mold on bread, you just see mold, but you don't watch the mold individually, each ones life that makes up the mold, and its just trying to survive like we are on the earth, eating that too.

Were smaller than a particle I believe.

Thebel
This can be explained easily. The area outside the Universe is just like everything was "before" the Big Bang. The quotes mean that there wasn't time before the Big Bang, so there is not really "before the Big Bang" time. So outside the Universe is no space, nor time. Its nothingness, but its hard to imagine nothingness as human.

So the area around Universe is area, where Big Bang hasn't happened (yet). BUT The Universe keeps expanding to this nothingness until Universe cools too much. There is theories what happens when Universe has cooled down. Some say Universe will collapse, and some think that Universe slowly dies, when there is no new stars forming and black holes eat everything.

Outside Our universe you have a absolute constant time line. That means the clock changes but its Space dosent.
Within Our universe both Space and time changes all the time.

reply to post by Wolfenz


You do relize this was a computer simulation and it doesnt even apply to our universe they are simply saying its theoritically possible.Read the article this is simply trying to help us understand what happens in a black hole when the laws of physics breaks down. Here is a quote from your article and in the future dont read something expecting it to verify your beliefs youll usually come to the wrong conclusion like here.

Neither of the model universes explored by the Japanese team resembles our own, Maldacena notes. The cosmos with a black hole has ten dimensions, with eight of them forming an eight-dimensional sphere. The lower-dimensional, gravity-free one has but a single dimension, and its menagerie of quantum particles resembles a group of idealized springs, or harmonic oscillators, attached to one another.

Nevertheless, says Maldacena, the numerical proof that these two seemingly disparate worlds are actually identical gives hope that the gravitational properties of our Universe can one day be explained by a simpler cosmos purely in terms of quantum theory.

If you want to know how i know we dont live in a hologram its because we cant find whats called quantum fuzziness or graininess if you will. Simply means when we look at light particles we should see a polarization or bias of the light. If we lived in a hologram high energy photons and low energy photons traveling through space they would polarize. Well this isnt happening meaning that space is continuous and not a hologram.

For those with ears to hear... or should I say eyes to read...

Think about when you dream... you are in your own Universe, in your own mind. Anything and everything you dream about can feel just as real as reality, yet it doesn't actually exist. You can dream about your favorite vehicle, see it, touch it, get in it, drive or fly it around, and it will all feel real. But that vehicle doesn't actually exist. You only feel it, sense it.

If you were dreaming long enough, and clear minded enough, you could dream about looking at that vehicle under a microscope, and swear it is made of matter, or little bits of energy, or whatever your mind can conceive. You could do experiments and conclude several theories about the composition of the vehicle, and your Universe. You can even discover things your mind can't even explain, yet your mind created those things. But those things still don't exist. They are only sensations.

In a dream, you could look up at the sky, see stars, planets, or anything you can imagine really. You may even wonder; "How big is this Universe?", "Does this Universe end?", "If I traveled to the edge of this Universe, what would be outside of it?". You could even get in a spacecraft, and fly as far as you can to find out for your self, in your dream.

But, sooner or later you will discover that it doesn't end. There is no edge of the Universe. You may manifest the illusion of an edge, but you will always be able to go past it whenever your mind desires. Your mind will just create more Universe beyond the edge, and do so infinitely. Or the edge will be constantly moving away from you. That is because your mind is infinite, and capable of experiencing the infinite. You create as you go, so there is no end. You might even say; "Hey the Universe is expanding!", and not realize you are the reason it is expanding. The more you observe it, the more it will expand.

So let me ask you... when your Universe, in your dream, in your mind, is expanding, what is it expanding into?

What makes reality any different?

All that we believe is real and exists are just sensations. The sensation of light in our eyes, sensation of touch on our skin, sound in our ears, etc.. We assume all these are caused by physical things outside of our body, but ask yourself, are they really? We assume these physical things outside of us are within a very large physical space, and we are also inside this same physical space, but is that true? Is anything really physical?

What I know to be certain and most true; Everything I see, touch, hear, smell, taste, all takes place in my mind, and I can't do anything without my mind. Just like a dream. As much as my mind wants to believe all these sensations originated from outside my mind, there is the possibility my mind is receiving all these sensations from another part of my mind that I can or can't control, like a dream.

I can use my mind to move my body, to pick up a rock, and throw the rock. But what if the only reason that is possible is because the rock is in my mind? I use thoughts to move a thought. But who thought of the rock? Maybe another part of my mind did, but I wasn't aware of it.

My mind senses you, and other people, and my mind senses that we all sense similar things. For example we all sense the Sun, and its light. What if that is only possible because we are connected mentally? What if this sensation of the Sun and it's light is shared between us all because we are all One mind, sensing the same sensations? That Sun doesn't exist outside in some large physical space... it is just a thought that we all share within our connected minds.

We all have our independent thoughts, and we all can use our mind to manipulate our surroundings independently, but we can even manipulate each other's surroundings, and thoughts, and sensations. I can see you, you can see me, and those sensations of sight are just thoughts being passed from one part of this One mind to another. You can see the stars, I can see the stars, and those stars only exist in a part of our minds that we share together.

I can lock myself in a garage, and secretly invent/create/manifest some new device that can change the world, and not show or tell anyone. At that moment the device will only exist to me, in the part of my mind that I control, as a thought that I created. Until I tell someone about it, or show someone, that thought will not be shared, and you will never sense it. The moment someone sees it, or I tell someone, the thought is then shared with your part of the mind, and your mind is able to sense it.

It is like the Universe is one large memory bank. We can all read and write from this same memory, and share the memory, or protect the memory. Like multiple computers all connecting to the same harddrive.

Again, for all we know, everything is a figment of our imagination, sensations in our mind, shared between us all, because we are all one. We are all obviously part of this Universe, this reality / dream, which is all made of the same energy. We all can communicate and share our ideas and thoughts... Can't you see we are one mind?

You can study the Universe, and laws of physics, and try to find an explanation for it all. But the answers are within, not without.

reply to post by Jordan River


Maybe Space was always there!!!

Maybe Matter was always there!!!

Maybe Planetary Bodies & Stars drifted from the centralised Big Bang due to the gravitational force of the Matter at the centre exploding outwards & inwards then outwards again, such was the pressure!!!
Not over a long course of time, less than a 10th of a split second...
Sort of like a Jellyfish swimming, increasing, decreasing then increasing in one flow of movement!!!

So maybe the Universe has always been the same size... Infinite perhaps...

Maybe it's only the Bodies that make up the Galaxies that expand rather than the Space & Matter between those objects!!!

Hence, an infinite drift!!!

I come to this conclusion based on the conception, or theory that there is no such thing as "nothing"...
I feel that is an impossibility... fathomless... There isn't a single place in the Universe, not even the size of the atomic structure of a nucleus of an atomic structure of a nucleus of an ato...
Well that tiny... Even there, there is something...
"Nothing" doesn't cannot exist!!!

I'm no Physicist, Astro nor Theoretical...
Wouldn't even consider myself a Philosopher...

But if I have just blown anyone's Mind I wouldn't be surprised ...
Get Professor Steven Hawking here for an AMA...
I'll wipe the floor with him


Peace everybody!!!

reply to post by Jordan River


Space has to be infinite. We look at everything in such a way that we think it must have an ending... the only reason why is because we live on a planet that has a limited amount of resources... An end to every road... Life is a great example. This is our only way of thinking. Why? Because we've never lived forever. Nothing of our knowledge can currently last forever because we haven't proven forever to exist. Humans have only been able to reveal an end to what we know. Everything that we have created has an end to it. Our race will see its end before we answer the infinite question of "What is it made of?" I'm 17 and new to most of this, feel free to discredit anything I have to say... As I'm only trying to learn an infinite amount of knowledge in a finite amount of time.