there must be something outside of the universe!!!

I've seen the edge of the Universe before. As I got closer to it, my mind created more Universe. Henceforth, infinity.

ChaoticOrder
Forget what you learnt about the shape of the universe when you were back at school. The universe is most likely infinite according to the latest data and theories we have. What that means is that space-time is infinite and there is nothing outside of it because it encompasses everything. What that also means is that the big bang was probably not responsible for creating space-time along with it, infinite space-time has probably always existed.

Although the shape of the universe is still a matter of debate in physical cosmology, based on the recent Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) measurements "We now know that the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error", according to NASA scientists.
--
The model most theorists currently use is the so-called Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker (FLRW) model. According to cosmologists, on this model the observational data best fit with the conclusion that the shape of the universe is infinite and flat.

en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 2/2/2014 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

Our universe can not be ininfite in an way. A universe that is absolute infinite must be absolut constant. That means its time line is absolute constant. Our universe does not have a absolute constant time line.

The other thing a absolte infinite unierse must be is absolut neutral. Our universe is not neutral in anyway.

spy66
Our universe does not have a absolute constant time line.

You're right, it doesn't. Because time doesn't exist. Time is just an illusion created by the observation of change, and sustained by memory.

spy66
A universe that is absolute infinite must be absolut constant.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? The universe (or rather multiverse) may be infinite, but constantly changing. Expanding, creating matter, destroying matter, etc.

A physicist might say, in layman's language anyway, that there, by definition, is nothing outside of the universe (and all dimensions therein).

I think it's more complex than that, now, with some new theories and info, but basically, working with the understood definitions of "universe," that still stands.

But personally I think it sorta has to keep going a la the little known sequel to 'Horton Hears a Who ' called 'Horton Enters the Hyperdimensional Multiverse and is Agape."

Heh...

Edit: and am I correct that there will be a new "Cosmos" soon starring Neal DeGrasse Tyson? Edit 2: Yup, thanks search engine, I wonder... the old series was sublime and copies usually blow, but it has been a few decades and oodles of new info to sift... so I'm hoping it's at the least interesting even w/out Sagan's drawl

reply to post by Jordan River


Another idea to ponder is this. If the Universe is truly infinite, then it must follow that all things and probabilities are not only possible, but abundant. It also follows that every point in an infinite universe must be the exact centre.

So when the wife accuses you of acting like the Universe revolves around you - you can truthfully say "It does, actually"

I believe that there are some things that we shouldn't question. We should accept them instead.

If we venture too far while looking for a truth/answer, we might end up with consequences.

For example: Where do we originate/how are we alive?
All that this has lead to is religious wars, racism, genocide, segregation, and prejudice.

Now I am not saying that it is bad to question things. We all want the answer to EVERYTHING! But sometimes, there are things that we just shouldn't question or venture too deep for an answer, we just have to live with it and accept it.

...and sometimes the truth/answer can end up being life changing in both positive and negative ways.

reply to post by Kuroodo


Or, in the words of H. P. Lovecraft, “The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”

Kuroodo
...For example: Where do we originate/how are we alive?
All that this has lead to is religious wars, racism, genocide, segregation, and prejudice...

I think it is the ignorance to the answer to this question is what leads to racism, genocide, segregation, etc.

The knowledge that we all come from the same place, and are all basically one people should help quell racism. It is the false belief that one set of people are somehow "born special" compared to other sets of people is what fuels racism.

what is the...

Paper?
Pencil?
Writer?
Existence the writer exists in?

AHHH

Kuroodo
...For example: Where do we originate/how are we alive?
All that this has lead to is religious wars, racism, genocide, segregation, and prejudice...

I think it is the ignorance to the answer to this question is what leads to racism, genocide, segregation, etc.

The knowledge that we all come from the same place, and are all basically one people should help quell racism. It is the false belief that one set of people are somehow "born special" compared to other sets of people is what fuels racism.

this is a separate issue from what the thread seeks to answer. it seeks to answer the questions God put to Job in Job chapter 38:

38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

but you ask the origins of prejudice and evil and so forth. God said each of his creations were good and very good. he made no distinction between the men that he created. he did set aside one man and his progeny to be the bloodline of the savior. but that man and that progeny gave God no end of trouble and often needed correction almost to the point of extinction.

but i feel we should turn back to the purpose of this thread. that of how the plumb bob was hung on the foundations of the universe.

If anyone's interested in a scientific explanation regarding the boundaries on the "viewable" universe, there's a decent thread on the Physics Forum site. Physicists consider the universe to have an "event horizon" and a "particle horizon". Follow the replies to the OP made by marcus. Despite the silly avatar, he's a scientist and is expressing our current knowledge of the subject.

The thread is called Can you view objects that moved beyond the event horizon?.

Jordan River
This topic is always interesting to me. Space must have an outside. Idk what, another dimension, another universe or parallel worlds. Idk.
The big bang can be considered equivalent to a dot on a peice of paper. With a line that represents time.! So a line is present ,past and future. So what the hell is the peice of paper???????? Furthermore, what the hell is the pencil?
although, this is not my master topic, i know for a fact that there is one equivocal truth about the universe. Everything moves!!! Planet moves, plants, peopleo, comets. Teutonic plates. Nothing is still. So whats in the background must move our universe. One big clock

edit on 2-2-2014 by Jordan River because: (no reason given)

When there is "nothing" (assuming that at the time of the BB 'everything' was condensed into one 'point' and nothing else was anywhere else ), the question of the background, or the "thing" containing the "nothing" becomes pointless.

Concepts like distance etc. are human concepts, better even, they only make sense if there is points A or B where an idea like "distance" makes sense. Without points A and B, "distance" obviously doesn't exist....neither does a medium which would "contain" those points.

But aside from the above, I do not agree with the idea of the BB anyway since the BB is an outdated theory...I don't agree with the idea that the universe was born of "nothing". We simply don't know enough yet. It's possible that BBs happen all the time with multiple universes created by Big Bangs within different "dimensions", universes which have entirely different laws etc. but exist alongside with ours.

The problem here is that our concepts of distance, space, time etc. are ONLY valid for our physical universe as we understand it...and this would also mean our understanding of the universe as a whole. Worse, those concepts are actually NOT suitable to define a "truth" about the "true" universe, but ONLY FOR AS OUR HUMAN MIND IS PERCEIVING IT. (===> The universe/reality as our mind is shaping it).

For example, it COULD well be that "another" universe is right there, parallel to us...NOT separated in terms of "distance" but rather"shifted" in terms of dimensions and therefore hidden from our view. Just saying that applying common concepts ("background", "outside" etc.) will at some point be more limiting than they would actually help understanding the universe. My $0.02 : )

reply to post by Jordan River


According to quantum theory, if you went back in time and killed your own grandfather, instead of wiping yourself out of existence it would "split" into two alternate timelines, one where you were born and another where you weren't. This could explain why we don't see time travelers despite the fact that time travel is a possibility. Maybe when they mess with history, they end up "sliding" into a parallel universe. There was a show on Sci Fi channel called Sliders which was all about these theories. (Ok, only the first two seasons were).

reply to post by Jordan River


There are even some theories that the entire universe may be a computer simulation, because it seems to behave like a giant quantum computer. www.youtube.com...

Perhaps the "Programmers" are out there...

reply to post by MADXENOBIOLOGIST


Another possible explanation for that correlation is the influance of consciousness on the universe and is the mind of the observer actually manipulating selective reality's from a much larger reality beyond the perceived and ideological universe.

I’ve gotta admit, I share NoRulesAllowed’s skepticism about the Big Bang. I believe a number of mainstream physicists are also skeptical about it.

I think the “logic” behind the BB is that, if the universe (space and everything within it) is expanding, then “logically” it must have at some time occupied a smaller volume. Well, yeah, that makes sense. “Logically”. But that it once occupied the volume of a softball (or smaller), might that be following our “logic” to such an extreme as to lead to an “illogical” conclusion? That’s what I wonder. This is just a feeling, however. I’m certainly no expert.

We Humans developed our brand of “logic” to make sense of our experiences and observations as Earthlings at our particular macro level. Then along came the 20th century and the development of relativity to explain events on the large scale and quantum mechanics/physics to describe observations at the atomic/subatomic level. So much for reason and intuitive “logic”.

I spent 4 years getting a B.S. in mathematics (not an advanced degree, so like I said, I’m no expert), have great respect for science and technology, and have worked in the computer industry for many years. BUT, unlike many others, I do not hold up OUR invention of mathematics as the last word, or as a universally accepted language amongst any sufficiently advanced technology or intelligence. It’s just the best thing we humans have come up with so far to express our human reasoning. It doesn’t mean it’s the ONLY method. If we were born in a black hole, for instance, maybe we would have developed a more adequate description of it’s workings and behavior by now. Since we weren’t, though, we’re still struggling to develop an adequate model using our current mathematics/physics. We just can’t get there from here - at least, not yet.

I guess what I’m getting at is, although I value scientific reasoning and protocol and support it’s advancement, I also have a skeptical side, and do not consider it a “religion”. At least, not in every case...

My take on it. We live in a simulation that is a product of consciousness. The simulation is a subset of a greater reality which we can't possibly know about (logically) unless we venture outside of the physical simulated 'space' we live in. An easy way to understand how our universe could be infinite, yet finite, is to simply look at a video game. The world and objects are finite. If you put a cheat in so your character can fly away from the game world, the level, you will simply move away forever, and ever, and ever. Your coordinates will infinitely change, but you'll never reach the end. Just try it. Same thing in a 3D software program. Move away from your 3D model forever and your coordinates will change but you'll never get to the edge of anything.

Yet, another 'reality', a so called truer reality sits right outside that screen, with different physics and properties. It is more encompassing, more real, and yet it is also a subset of a greater reality. Just like it's illogical for an ingame AI to understand anything outside of it's 'reality', the same applies to our universe.

There are ways out though. Out of body experiences, bodily death, near death experiences, etc.. The 'outside' is more real than this universe, where consciousness is more aware, less constrained, but at the same time cannot experience much in its existence without applying a set of rules and constraints that create 'experience'. Thus, physical reality. Then, we take that experience over there and use it. Re-experience it through manifestation (same thing as here, which is all a program and product of consciousness as well), and learn from it. Once we have the blue print of initial experience, it can be stored and relived, learned from, and then you grow and evolve consciousness from it.

netbound
If anyone's interested in a scientific explanation regarding the boundaries on the "viewable" universe, there's a decent thread on the Physics Forum site. Physicists consider the universe to have an "event horizon" and a "particle horizon". Follow the replies to the OP made by marcus. Despite the silly avatar, he's a scientist and is expressing our current knowledge of the subject.

The thread is called Can you view objects that moved beyond the event horizon?.

Exactly just unlike a black hole its not fixed meaning it will move with you . If someone was on another galaxy theres would be different from ours and be able to see parts of the universe we can never see.

MADXENOBIOLOGIST
reply to post by Jordan River

 

There are even some theories that the entire universe may be a computer simulation, because it seems to behave like a giant quantum computer. www.youtube.com...

Perhaps the "Programmers" are out there...

No this was disproven there would be a fuzziness at the quantum level its not there were the real deal.